Plato, Republic, ed. John Burnet, 5.449

Search the Perseus Catalog for:

← Previous Next →

[449] 449a
ἀγαθὴν μὲν τοίνυν τὴν τοιαύτην πόλιν τε καὶ πολιτείαν καὶ ὀρθὴν καλῶ, καὶ ἄνδρα τὸν τοιοῦτον· κακὰς δὲ τὰς ἄλλας καὶ ἡμαρτημένας, εἴπερ αὕτη ὀρθή, περί τε πόλεων διοικήσεις καὶ περὶ ἰδιωτῶν ψυχῆς τρόπου κατασκευήν, ἐν τέτταρσι πονηρίας εἴδεσιν οὔσας.
ποίας δὴ ταύτας; ἔφη.
καὶ ἐγὼ μὲν ᾖα τὰς ἐφεξῆς ἐρῶν, ὥς μοι ἐφαίνοντο 449b ἕκασται ἐξ ἀλλήλων μεταβαίνειν· ὁ δὲ Πολέμαρχος— σμικρὸν γὰρ ἀπωτέρω τοῦ Ἀδειμάντου καθῆστο—ἐκτείνας τὴν χεῖρα καὶ λαβόμενος τοῦ ἱματίου ἄνωθεν αὐτοῦ παρὰ τὸν ὦμον, ἐκεῖνόν τε προσηγάγετο καὶ προτείνας ἑαυτὸν ἔλεγεν ἄττα προσκεκυφώς, ὧν ἄλλο μὲν οὐδὲν κατηκούσαμεν, τόδε δέ· Ἀφήσομεν οὖν, ἔφη, ἢ τί δράσομεν;
ἥκιστά γε, ἔφη ὁ Ἀδείμαντος μέγα ἤδη λέγων.
καὶ ἐγώ, τί μάλιστα, ἔφην, ὑμεῖς οὐκ ἀφίετε;
σέ, ἦ δʼ ὅς. 449c
ὅτι, ἐγὼ εἶπον, τί μάλιστα;
ἀπορρᾳθυμεῖν ἡμῖν δοκεῖς, ἔφη, καὶ εἶδος ὅλον οὐ τὸ ἐλάχιστον ἐκκλέπτειν τοῦ λόγου ἵνα μὴ διέλθῃς, καὶ λήσειν οἰηθῆναι εἰπὼν αὐτὸ φαύλως, ὡς ἄρα περὶ γυναικῶν τε καὶ παίδων παντὶ δῆλον ὅτι κοινὰ τὰ φίλων ἔσται.
οὐκοῦν ὀρθῶς, ἔφην, ὦ Ἀδείμαντε;
ναί, ἦ δʼ ὅς. ἀλλὰ τὸ ὀρθῶς τοῦτο, ὥσπερ τἆλλα, λόγου δεῖται τίς ὁ τρόπος τῆς κοινωνίας· πολλοὶ γὰρ ἂν γένοιντο. 449d μὴ οὖν παρῇς ὅντινα σὺ λέγεις· ὡς ἡμεῖς πάλαι περιμένομεν οἰόμενοί σέ που μνησθήσεσθαι παιδοποιίας τε πέρι, πῶς παιδοποιήσονται, καὶ γενομένους πῶς θρέψουσιν, καὶ ὅλην ταύτην ἣν λέγεις κοινωνίαν γυναικῶν τε καὶ παίδων· μέγα γάρ τι οἰόμεθα φέρειν καὶ ὅλον εἰς πολιτείαν ὀρθῶς ἢ μὴ ὀρθῶς γιγνόμενον.

Republic. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1905.

Sponsored by Perseus Project, Tufts University.

Funding provided by The Annenberg CPB/Project.

Current edition Perseus

Πολιτεία (Greek) (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.)

Translations (1)

Republic Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).) — 5.449 focus

[449] 449a
To such a city, then, or constitution I apply the terms good¹ and right—and to the corresponding kind of man; but the others I describe as bad and mistaken, if this one is right, in respect both to the administration of states and to the formation² of the character of the individual soul, they falling under four forms of badness. What are these, he said. And I was going on³ to enumerate them in what seemed to me the order of their evolution⁴ 449b from one another, when Polemarchus—he sat at some little distance⁵ from Adeimantus—stretched forth his hand, and, taking hold of his garment⁶ from above by the shoulder, drew the other toward him and, leaning forward himself, spoke a few words in his ear, of which we overheard nothing⁷ else save only this, Shall we let him off,⁸ then, he said, or what shall we do? By no means, said Adeimantus, now raising his voice. What, pray,⁹ said I, is it that you are not letting off? You, 449c said he. And for what reason, pray? said I. We think you are a slacker, he said, and are trying to cheat¹⁰ us out of a whole division,¹¹ and that not the least, of the argument to avoid the trouble of expounding it, and expect to get away with it by observing thus lightly that, of course, in respect to women and children it is obvious to everybody that the possessions of friends will be in common.¹² Well, isn’t that right, Adeimantus? I said. Yes, said he, but this word right,¹³ like other things, requires defining¹⁴ as to the way¹⁵ and manner of such a community. There might be many ways. Don’t, then, pass over the one 449d that you¹⁶ have in mind. For we have long been lying in wait for you, expecting that you would say something both of the procreation of children and their bringing up,¹⁷ and would explain the whole matter of the community of women and children of which you speak. We think that the right or wrong management of this makes a great difference, all the difference in the world,¹⁸ in the constitution of a state;

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

ἰδιωτῶν ‐‐ κατασκευήν : ‘the organization of the character of the individual soul.’ ψυχῆς was doubted by Ast; but cf. IV 445 C τοσοῦτοι κινδυνεύουσι καὶ ψυχῆς τρόποι εἶναι, and for the collocation of genitives VII 525 C αὐτῆς τῆς ψυχῆς ῥᾳστώνης μεταστροφῆς, VIII 544 D, 559 E, 560 B, Tim. 24 B and other cases in Kühner Gr. Gr. II p. 289. ψυχῆς τρόπου is practically a single word like ‘soul-character’ (“Seelenbeschaffenheit” Schneider).

σμικρὸν κτλ. explains ἐκτείνας τὴν χεῖρα: ‘paullo longius ab Adimanto, quam clandestinum colloquium requirebat’ or ‘paullo remotior, quam reliqui a suis vicinis,’ not “a little further away from Socrates than Adimantus” (J. and C.): for “cur propterea manum protenderit et Adimantum attraxerit, non apparet” (Schneider).

τί μάλιστα κτλ. ‘What particular thing is it that you decline to let off?’ ‘You,’ said he. ‘Because of what particular remark of mine?’ (lit. ‘because I said what in particular?’) There is not, as J. and C. suppose, a play on the two senses of τί μάλιστα — cur potissimum and quid potissimum: for it must be observed that ἀφήσομεν has no expressed object, and Socrates could not have known that it was intended to refer to him. The removal of the commas usually printed after ὅτι and εἶπον restores sense, I think, to the remainder of this passage. ἔτι for ὅτι (see cr. n.) can scarcely stand, for ἔτι ἐγὼ εἶπον cannot mean ‘I repeated’ (Jowett), nor can we read ἔτι, ἐγὼ εἶπον, τί μάλιστα ‘once more, said I’ etc. In none of the parallels hitherto cited does ἔτι mean merely ‘once more’ or ‘again.’ Those who print ὅτι, ἐγὼ εἶπον, τί μάλιστα (Stallbaum) mostly take ὅτι—τί μάλιστα as in I 343 A ὅτι δὴ τί μάλιστα; ἦν δ’ ἐγώ. Ὅτι κτλ. But in such cases (as Schneider points out) there must be a second ὅτι to introduce the answer, and here there is not.

ἐκκλέπτειν = ‘to cheat out of’ as in μὴ—ἐκκλέψῃς λόγον Soph. Trach. 436 f.: see Jebb ad loc.

κοινὰ τὰ φίλων . See IV 423 E, 424 A notes κοινὰ τὰ τῶν φίλων is preferred by Ast and Stallbaum (with two late MSS), but the shorter form is far more racy of the soil, and occurs also in Lys. 207 C , Laws 739 C (Schneider on IV 424 A).

καὶ ὅλῃν κτλ. : i.e. καὶ ἐξηγήσεσθαι or the like, supplied from μνησθήσεσθαι. The construction cannot (as J. and C. suggest) go back to μὴ οὖν παρῇς.

μέγα κτλ. καί after φέρειν=‘or rather’ (atque) as in ὀλίγου τινὸς—καὶ οὐδενός ( Ap. 23 A ). For γιγνόμενον Liebhold proposes γιγνομένην, but see on IV 427 D. The feminine would be awkward after πολιτείαν, and κοινωνίαν—παίδων, though grammatically feminine, is logically neuter.

ἄλλης ‐‐ πολιτείας is explained by ᾖα τὰς ἐφεξῆς ἐρῶν (449 A). Stallbaum makes a curious slip: “quoniam ad alias πολιτείας partes considerandas celeriter accedis.”

Plato Republic 5.449

ed. John Burnet

Search the Perseus Catalog for:

Current edition Perseus

Commentary

Stable identifiers