Plato, Republic, ed. John Burnet, 5.450

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[450] νῦν οὖν, ἐπειδὴ ἄλλης ἐπιλαμβάνῃ πολιτείας πρὶν ταῦτα ἱκανῶς διελέσθαι, δέδοκται ἡμῖν τοῦτο 450a ὃ σὺ ἤκουσας, τὸ σὲ μὴ μεθιέναι πρὶν ἂν ταῦτα πάντα ὥσπερ τἆλλα διέλθῃς.
καὶ ἐμὲ τοίνυν, ὁ Γλαύκων ἔφη, κοινωνὸν τῆς ψήφου ταύτης τίθετε.
ἀμέλει, ἔφη ὁ Θρασύμαχος, πᾶσι ταῦτα δεδογμένα ἡμῖν νόμιζε, ὦ Σώκρατες.
οἷον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, εἰργάσασθε ἐπιλαβόμενοί μου. ὅσον λόγον πάλιν, ὥσπερ ἐξ ἀρχῆς, κινεῖτε περὶ τῆς πολιτείας· ἣν ὡς ἤδη διεληλυθὼς ἔγωγε ἔχαιρον, ἀγαπῶν εἴ τις ἐάσοι ταῦτα ἀποδεξάμενος ὡς τότε ἐρρήθη. ἃ νῦν ὑμεῖς παρακαλοῦντες 450b οὐκ ἴστε ὅσον ἑσμὸν λόγων ἐπεγείρετε· ὃν ὁρῶν ἐγὼ παρῆκα τότε, μὴ παράσχοι πολὺν ὄχλον.
τί δέ; ἦ δʼ ὃς ὁ Θρασύμαχος· χρυσοχοήσοντας οἴει τούσδε νῦν ἐνθάδε ἀφῖχθαι, ἀλλʼ οὐ λόγων ἀκουσομένους;
ναί, εἶπον, μετρίων γε.
μέτρον δέ γʼ, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὁ Γλαύκων, τοιούτων λόγων ἀκούειν ὅλος ὁ βίος νοῦν ἔχουσιν. ἀλλὰ τὸ μὲν ἡμέτερον ἔα· σὺ δὲ περὶ ὧν ἐρωτῶμεν μηδαμῶς ἀποκάμῃς ᾗ 450c σοι δοκεῖ διεξιών, τίς ἡ κοινωνία τοῖς φύλαξιν ἡμῖν παίδων τε πέρι καὶ γυναικῶν ἔσται καὶ τροφῆς νέων ἔτι ὄντων, τῆς ἐν τῷ μεταξὺ χρόνῳ γιγνομένης γενέσεώς τε καὶ παιδείας, ἣ δὴ ἐπιπονωτάτη δοκεῖ εἶναι. πειρῶ οὖν εἰπεῖν τίνα τρόπον δεῖ γίγνεσθαι αὐτήν.
οὐ ῥᾴδιον, ὦ εὔδαιμον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, διελθεῖν· πολλὰς γὰρ ἀπιστίας ἔχει ἔτι μᾶλλον τῶν ἔμπροσθεν ὧν διήλθομεν. καὶ γὰρ ὡς δυνατὰ λέγεται, ἀπιστοῖτʼ ἄν, καὶ εἰ ὅτι μάλιστα γένοιτο, ὡς ἄριστʼ ἂν εἴη ταῦτα, καὶ ταύτῃ ἀπιστήσεται. 450d διὸ δὴ καὶ ὄκνος τις αὐτῶν ἅπτεσθαι, μὴ εὐχὴ δοκῇ εἶναι ὁ λόγος, ὦ φίλε ἑταῖρε.
μηδέν, ἦ δʼ ὅς, ὄκνει· οὔτε γὰρ ἀγνώμονες οὔτε ἄπιστοι οὔτε δύσνοι οἱ ἀκουσόμενοι.
καὶ ἐγὼ εἶπον· ὦ ἄριστε, ἦ που βουλόμενός με παραθαρρύνειν λέγεις;
ἔγωγʼ, ἔφη.
πᾶν τοίνυν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τοὐναντίον ποιεῖς. πιστεύοντος μὲν γὰρ ἐμοῦ ἐμοὶ εἰδέναι ἃ λέγω, καλῶς εἶχεν ἡ παραμυθία· ἐν γὰρ φρονίμοις τε καὶ φίλοις περὶ τῶν μεγίστων τε καὶ 450e φίλων τἀληθῆ εἰδότα λέγειν ἀσφαλὲς καὶ θαρραλέον,

Republic. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1905.

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Πολιτεία (Greek) (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.)

Translations (1)

Republic Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).) — 5.450 focus

[450] so now, since you are beginning on another constitution before sufficiently defining this, we are firmly resolved, 450a as you overheard, not to let you go till you have expounded all this as fully as you did the rest. Set me down, too, said Glaucon, as voting this ticket.¹ Surely, said Thrasymachus, you may consider it a joint resolution of us all, Socrates.
What a thing you have done, said I, in thus challenging² me! What a huge debate you have started afresh, as it were, about this polity, in the supposed completion of which I was rejoicing, being only too glad to have it accepted 450b as I then set it forth! You don’t realize what a swarm³ of arguments you are stirring up⁴ by this demand, which I foresaw and evaded to save us no end of trouble. Well, said Thrasymachus,⁵ do you suppose this company has come here to prospect for gold⁶ and not to listen to discussions? Yes, I said, in measure. Nay, Socrates, said Glaucon, the measure⁷ of listening to such discussions is the whole of life for reasonable men. So don’t consider us, and do not you yourself grow weary 450c in explaining to us what we ask or, your views as to how this communion of wives and children among our guardians will be managed, and also about the rearing of the children while still young in the interval between⁸ birth and formal schooling which is thought to be the most difficult part of education. Try, then, to tell us what must be the manner of it. It is not an easy thing to expound, my dear fellow, said I, for even more than the provisions that precede it, it raises many doubts. For one might doubt whether what is proposed is possible⁹ and, even conceding the possibility,¹⁰ one might still be sceptical whether it is best. 450d For which reason one as it were, shrinks from touching on the matter lest the theory be regarded as nothing but a wish-thought,¹¹ my dear friend. Do not shrink, he said, for your hearers will not be inconsiderate¹² nor distrustful nor hostile. And I said, My good fellow, is that remark intended to encourage me? It is, he said. Well, then, said I, it has just the contrary effect. For, if I were confident that I was speaking with knowledge, it would be an excellent encouragement. 450e For there is both safety and security in speaking the truth with knowledge about our greatest and dearest concerns to those who are both wise and dear.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

τίθετε . Glauco addresses both Polemarchus and Adimantus. There is no occasion to write τίθει (with Hartman).

οἶον ‐‐ εἰργάσασθε κτλ. Chiappelli ( Riv. di Filologia etc. XI p. 195) finds in this and the following sentences a vaticinium ex eventu of Aristophanes' Ecclesiazusae. But the word παρῆκα shews that the ἐσμὸς λόγων does not refer to swarms of adverse criticism, but merely to the topics which Socrates must now discuss. See App. I, and (on the subject in general) Laws 779 E.

τότε . IV 423 E.

ἃ νῦν ὑμεῖς κτλ. : ‘in appealing to these topics now you’ etc. παρακαλοῦντες means literally ‘calling to you’: “das ruft ihr nun herbei” (Schneider). This interpretation is in harmony with ἐπεγείρετε, and gives the right antithesis to ἐάσοι. Neither “excitantes” (Ast), nor “in disputationem vocantes” (Stallbaum) is quite accurate. J. and C. give two alternative renderings (1) “and in now calling in this fresh argument,” (2) “and in now urging me to this.” But the antecedent can only be ταῦτα.

χρυσοχοήσοντας κτλ. Socrates shudders at the swarm of λόγοι to be encountered. ‘Why,’ says Thrasymachus, ‘it was precisely to listen to λόγοι, and not to smelt ore for gold, that we came here.’ χρυσοχοεῖν is a proverbial expression said of those who neglect their proper duty for some more fascinating— if less profitable—pursuit. Cf. Harpocr. s.v. χρυσοχοεῖον: Δείναρχος ἐν τῷ κατὰ Πυθέου· πάλιν παρ’ Αἰσχίνην ἀποφοιτήσας παρὰ τούτῳ δῆλον ὅτι χρυσοχοεῖν ἐμάνθανεν, ἀλλ’ οὐ τὸ προκείμενον αὐτὸ ποιεῖν ἢ πάσχειν. Here τὸ προκείμενον is λόγων ἀκούειν. The origin of the proverb is thus explained. A heap of gold-dust having been discovered on Hymettus, the Athenian populace deserted their usual avocations, and sallied out to seize it. But as it was guarded ὑπὸ τῶν μαχίμων μυκτήρων (cf. Hdt. III 102 ff. with the parallels cited by Stein), they failed. On returning ἔσκωπτον ἀλλήλους λέγοντες ‘σὺ δὲ ᾤου χρυσοχοήσειν.’ Cf. Suidas s.v. and Leutsch u. Schneidewin Paroem. Gr. I p. 464, II pp. 91, 727. A gloss in Bekker's Anec. Gr. I p. 316 (cited by Schneider) explains χρυσοχοεῖν in Dinarchus as proverbial for πορνεύειν; but it cannot have so offensive a meaning here, for (among other reasons) Thrasymachus and Socrates are now reconciled. Ast's explanation “aurum fundere proverbialiter dicitur, quem magna, quam animo conceperat, spes frustratur” expresses only one side of the proverb: the other—neglecting the duty which lies nearest—is more important and relevant here. “To find an Eldorado” (Warren) may perhaps meet the case. Thomas Gray's explanation is not altogether right: “a proverbial expression used of such as are idly employed or sent (as we say) on a fool's errand.”

μέτρον δὲ κτλ. An argumentum ad hominem, for the sentiment is Socratic: cf. VI 504 C. δέ γε=‘yes, but’ helps to bring out this point. ἀκούειν is the common epexegetic infinitive: cf. III 407 B note To insert τοῦ before τοιούτων (with Herwerden and Richards) is both unnecessary and inelegant.

τὸ μὲν ἡμἑτερον ἔα : ‘never mind us’: we are equal to a long discourse (so also J. and C.).

τῷ μεταξὺ χρόνῳ . The interval between γένεσις and παιδεία is nowhere defined in the Republic: in Laws 794 C it is reckoned at six years. For the regulations applying to this period see infra 460 B—D, and cf. Laws 788 D ff.

οὖν . See cr. n. It is admitted that Π is independent of A, so that οὖν (which most MSS have) may well be right. The tendency to confuse οὖν and ἄν may help to explain A's variants οὔκουν and οὐκ ἂν οὖν in I 333 E. Baiter reads δή. The confusion of ἄν and δή occurs no doubt in MSS, but its frequency has been much exaggerated, as for instance in Cl. Rev. VI p. 338.

ὦ εὔδαιμον . Cf. IV 422 E note

μὴ εὐχὴ κτλ. For εὐχή=an impossible aspiration, a Utopian or chimerical proposal, cf. 456 C, VII 540 D and see Susemihl and Hicks on Arist. Pol. B 1. 1260^{b} 29.

ἀγνώμονες : i.q. ἀνεπιστήμονες, as explained (with reference to this passage) in Bekker's Anec. Gr. I p. 334: cf. Phaedr. 275 A . Hence φρονίμοις in E below. The more usual meaning, ‘inconsiderate,’ ‘unkind,’ is less suitable here on account of δύσνοι.

φίλων κτλ. φίλων though neuter is of course intended to balance φίλοις. The conjecture φιλτάτων (Richards, Hartman) destroys the balance and is in itself superfluous: see Kühner Gr. Gr. II p. 23. Note the characteristic chiasmus ἀσφαλὲς καὶ θαρραλέον—φοβερόν τε καὶ σφαλερόν.

Plato Republic 5.450

ed. John Burnet

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