Plato, Republic, Paul Shorey (Translator), 8.559

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[559] Then we shall rightly use the word necessary of them? Rightly. And what of the desires from which a man could free himself by discipline from youth up, and whose presence in the soul does no good and in some cases harm? Should we not fairly call all such unnecessary? Fairly indeed. Let us select an example of either kind, so that we may apprehend the type.¹ Let us do so. Would not the desire of eating to keep in health and condition and the appetite 559b for mere bread and relishes² be necessary? I think so. The appetite for bread is necessary in both respects, in that it is beneficial and in that if it fails we die. Yes. And the desire for relishes, so far as it conduces to fitness? By all means. And should we not rightly pronounce unnecessary the appetite that exceeds these and seeks other varieties of food, and that by correction³ and training from youth up can be got rid of in most cases and is harmful to the body and a hindrance to the soul’s attainment of 559c intelligence and sobriety? Nay, most rightly. And may we not call the one group the spendthrift desires and the other the profitable,⁴ because they help production? Surely. And we shall say the same of sexual and other appetites? The same. And were we not saying that the man whom we nicknamed the drone is the man who teems⁵ with such pleasures and appetites, and who is governed by his unnecessary desires, while the one who is ruled 559d by his necessary appetites is the thrifty oligarchical man? Why, surely.
To return, then, said I, we have to tell how the democratic man develops from the oligarchical type. I think it is usually in this way. How? When a youth, bred in the illiberal and niggardly fashion that we were describing, gets a taste of the honey of the drones and associates with fierce⁶ and cunning creatures who know how to purvey pleasures of every kind and variety⁷ and condition, there you must doubtless conceive is the beginning 559e of the transformation of the oligarchy in his soul into democracy. Quite inevitably, he said. May we not say that just as the revolution in the city was brought about by the aid of an alliance from outside, coming to the support of the similar and corresponding party in the state, so the youth is revolutionized when a like and kindred⁸ group of appetites from outside comes to the aid of one of the parties in his soul? By all means, he said.

Republic. Plato. Paul Shorey (Translator). Cambridge, MA. 1935-37.

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Current edition Perseus

Republic (English) (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).)

Editions (1)

Πολιτεία Perseus (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.) — 8.559 focus

[559] 559a
δικαίως δὴ τοῦτο ἐπʼ αὐταῖς ἐροῦμεν, τὸ ἀναγκαῖον.
δικαίως.
τί δέ; ἅς γέ τις ἀπαλλάξειεν ἄν, εἰ μελετῷ ἐκ νέου, καὶ πρὸς οὐδὲν ἀγαθὸν ἐνοῦσαι δρῶσιν, αἱ δὲ καὶ τοὐναντίον, πάσας ταύτας εἰ μὴ ἀναγκαίους φαῖμεν εἶναι, ἆρʼ οὐ καλῶς ἂν λέγοιμεν;
καλῶς μὲν οὖν.
προελώμεθα δή τι παράδειγμα ἑκατέρων αἵ εἰσιν, ἵνα τύπῳ λάβωμεν αὐτάς;
οὐκοῦν χρή.
ἆρʼ οὖν οὐχ ἡ τοῦ φαγεῖν μέχρι ὑγιείας τε καὶ εὐεξίας 559b καὶ αὐτοῦ σίτου τε καὶ ὄψου ἀναγκαῖος ἂν εἴη;
οἶμαι.
ἡ μέν γέ που τοῦ σίτου κατʼ ἀμφότερα ἀναγκαία, ᾗ τε ὠφέλιμος ᾗ τε μὴ παῦσαι ζῶντα δυνατή.
ναί.
ἡ δὲ ὄψου, εἴ πῄ τινα ὠφελίαν πρὸς εὐεξίαν παρέχεται,
πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
τί δὲ ἡ πέρα τούτων καὶ ἀλλοίων ἐδεσμάτων ἢ τοιούτων ἐπιθυμία, δυνατὴ δὲ κολαζομένη ἐκ νέων καὶ παιδευομένη ἐκ τῶν πολλῶν ἀπαλλάττεσθαι, καὶ βλαβερὰ μὲν σώματι, βλαβερὰ δὲ ψυχῇ πρός τε φρόνησιν καὶ τὸ σωφρονεῖν; ἆρά 559c γε ὀρθῶς οὐκ ἀναγκαία ἂν καλοῖτο;
ὀρθότατα μὲν οὖν.
οὐκοῦν καὶ ἀναλωτικὰς φῶμεν εἶναι ταύτας, ἐκείνας δὲ χρηματιστικὰς διὰ τὸ χρησίμους πρὸς τὰ ἔργα εἶναι;
τί μήν;
οὕτω δὴ καὶ περὶ ἀφροδισίων καὶ τῶν ἄλλων φήσομεν;
οὕτω.
ἆρʼ οὖν καὶ ὃν νυνδὴ κηφῆνα ὠνομάζομεν, τοῦτον ἐλέγομεν τὸν τῶν τοιούτων ἡδονῶν καὶ ἐπιθυμιῶν γέμοντα καὶ 559d ἀρχόμενον ὑπὸ τῶν μὴ ἀναγκαίων, τὸν δὲ ὑπὸ τῶν ἀναγκαίων φειδωλόν τε καὶ ὀλιγαρχικόν;
ἀλλὰ τί μήν;
πάλιν τοίνυν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, λέγωμεν ὡς ἐξ ὀλιγαρχικοῦ δημοκρατικὸς γίγνεται. φαίνεται δέ μοι τά γε πολλὰ ὧδε γίγνεσθαι.
πῶς;
ὅταν νέος, τεθραμμένος ὡς νυνδὴ ἐλέγομεν, ἀπαιδεύτως τε καὶ φειδωλῶς, γεύσηται κηφήνων μέλιτος, καὶ συγγένηται αἴθωσι θηρσὶ καὶ δεινοῖς, παντοδαπὰς ἡδονὰς καὶ ποικίλας καὶ παντοίως ἐχούσας δυναμένοις σκευάζειν, ἐνταῦθά που 559e οἴου εἶναι ἀρχὴν αὐτῷ μεταβολῆς ὀλιγαρχικῆς τῆς ἑαυτῷ εἰς δημοκρατικήν.
πολλὴ ἀνάγκη, ἔφη.
ἆρʼ οὖν, ὥσπερ ἡ πόλις μετέβαλλε βοηθησάσης τῷ ἑτέρῳ μέρει συμμαχίας ἔξωθεν, ὁμοίας ὁμοίῳ, οὕτω καὶ ὁ νεανίας μεταβάλλει βοηθοῦντος αὖ εἴδους ἐπιθυμιῶν ἔξωθεν τῷ ἑτέρῳ τῶν παρʼ ἐκείνῳ, συγγενοῦς τε καὶ ὁμοίου;
παντάπασιν μὲν οὖν.

Notes on the current edition

Republic

1. Or grasp them in outline.

2. For ὄψον cf. on 372 C, Vol. I. p. 158, note a.

3. For κολαζομένη cf. 571 B, Gorg. 505 B, 491 E, 507 D. For the thought cf. also 519 A-B.

4. Lit. money-making. Cf. 558 D.

5. For γέμοντα cf. 577 D, 578 A, 603 D, 611 B, Gorg. 525 A, 522 E, etc.

6. αἴθων occurs only here in Plato. It is common in Pindar and tragedy. Ernst Maass, Die Ironie des Sokrates, Sokrates, 11, p. 94

Platon hat an jener Stelle des Staats, von der wir ausgingen, die schlimmen Erzieher gefährliche Fuchsbestien genannt.

(Cf. Pindar, Ol. xi. 20.)

7. Cf. on 557 C, p. 286, note a.

8. Cf. 554 D.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

ἡ μέν γε κτλ. On γε see 556 A note and Neil's Appendix on γε in his edition of Ar. Knights p. 192. The words ᾗ τε—δυνατή should be explained as follows. Hunger, which is the desire of σῖτος, ‘is capable of putting an end to life’: i.e. it must be gratified ( οὐκ ἂν οἷοί τ’ εἶμεν ἀποτρέψαι 558 D), or else we die. On this ground, and also because it is ὠφέλιμος (i.e. ἀποτελουμένη ὠφελεῖ ἡμᾶς 558 E), we pronounce it an ἀναγκαία ἐπιθυμία. The Greek is terse but not obscure. With παῦσαι ζῶντα cf. Gorg. 523 C , D and Menex. 241 B . Jowett thinks the expression ‘very strange’ for ἀποκτιννύναι. It is strictly accurate: the sword kills, but hunger παύει ζῶντα: we merely ‘cease to live.’ Other views on this passage are discussed in App. III.

ἀλλοίων ‐‐ ἢ τοιούτων : “alius generis—quam quales modo diximus” (Stallbaum).

χρηματιστικὰς ‐‐ χρησίμους : ‘money-making or productive, because useful in production.’ Plato more suo σοφίζεται περὶ τὸ ὄνομα (VI 509 D note).

οὕτω δή : they also are ἀναλωτικαί. Epicurus l.c. describes ἡ τῶν ἀφροδισίων ἐπιθυμία as φυσικὴ μέν, οὐκ ἀναγκαία δέ.

νῦν δή . 552 C ff., 555 E ff.

Plato Republic 8.559

Paul Shorey (Translator)

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