Plato, Republic, Paul Shorey (Translator), 10.599

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[599] So we must consider whether these critics have not fallen in with such imitators and been deceived by them, so that looking upon their works 599a they cannot perceive that these are three removes from reality, and easy to produce without knowledge of the truth. For it is phantoms,¹ not realities, that they produce. Or is there something in their claim, and do good poets really know the things about which the multitude fancy they speak well? We certainly must examine the matter, he said. Do you suppose, then, that if a man were able to produce both the exemplar and the semblance, he would be eager to abandon himself to the fashioning of phantoms² and set this in the forefront 599b of his life as the best thing he had? I do not. But, I take it, if he had genuine knowledge of the things he imitates he would far rather devote himself to real things³ than to the imitation of them, and would endeavor to leave after him many noble deeds⁴ and works as memorials of himself, and would be more eager to be the theme of praise than the praiser. I think so, he said; for there is no parity in the honor and the gain. Let us not, then, demand a reckoning⁵ from Homer 599c or any other of the poets on other matters by asking them, if any one of them was a physician and not merely an imitator of a physician’s talk, what men any poet, old or new, is reported to have restored to health as Asclepius did, or what disciples of the medical art he left after him as Asclepius did his descendants; and let us dismiss the other arts and not question them about them; but concerning the greatest and finest things of which Homer undertakes to speak, wars and generalship⁶ 599d and the administration of cities and the education of men, it surely is fair to question him and ask, Friend Homer, if you are not at the third remove from truth and reality in human excellence, being merely that creator of phantoms whom we defined as the imitator, but if you are even in the second place and were capable of knowing what pursuits make men better or worse in private or public life, tell us what city was better governed owing to you,⁷ even as Lacedaemon was because of Lycurgus,⁸ and many other cities 599e great and small because of other legislators. But what city credits you with having been a good legislator and having benefited them? Italy and Sicily say this of Charondas and we of Solon.⁹ But who says it of you? Will he be able to name any? I think not, said Glaucon; at any rate none is mentioned even by the Homerids themselves.

Republic. Plato. Paul Shorey (Translator). Cambridge, MA. 1935-37.

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Current edition Perseus

Republic (English) (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).)

Editions (1)

Πολιτεία Perseus (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.) — 10.599 focus

[599] δεῖ δὴ ἐπισκέψασθαι πότερον μιμηταῖς τούτοις οὗτοι ἐντυχόντες ἐξηπάτηνται καὶ τὰ ἔργα αὐτῶν ὁρῶντες 599a οὐκ αἰσθάνονται τριττὰ ἀπέχοντα τοῦ ὄντος καὶ ῥᾴδια ποιεῖν μὴ εἰδότι τὴν ἀλήθειαν—φαντάσματα γὰρ ἀλλʼ οὐκ ὄντα ποιοῦσιν—ἤ τι καὶ λέγουσιν καὶ τῷ ὄντι οἱ ἀγαθοὶ ποιηταὶ ἴσασιν περὶ ὧν δοκοῦσιν τοῖς πολλοῖς εὖ λέγειν.
πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη, ἐξεταστέον.
οἴει οὖν, εἴ τις ἀμφότερα δύναιτο ποιεῖν, τό τε μιμηθησόμενον καὶ τὸ εἴδωλον, ἐπὶ τῇ τῶν εἰδώλων δημιουργίᾳ ἑαυτὸν ἀφεῖναι ἂν σπουδάζειν καὶ τοῦτο προστήσασθαι τοῦ 599b ἑαυτοῦ βίου ὡς βέλτιστον ἔχοντα;
οὐκ ἔγωγε.
ἀλλʼ εἴπερ γε οἶμαι ἐπιστήμων εἴη τῇ ἀληθείᾳ τούτων πέρι ἅπερ καὶ μιμεῖται, πολὺ πρότερον ἐν τοῖς ἔργοις ἂν σπουδάσειεν ἢ ἐπὶ τοῖς μιμήμασι, καὶ πειρῷτο ἂν πολλὰ καὶ καλὰ ἔργα ἑαυτοῦ καταλιπεῖν μνημεῖα, καὶ εἶναι προθυμοῖτʼ ἂν μᾶλλον ὁ ἐγκωμιαζόμενος ἢ ὁ ἐγκωμιάζων.
οἶμαι, ἔφη· οὐ γὰρ ἐξ ἴσου ἥ τε τιμὴ καὶ ἡ ὠφελία.
τῶν μὲν τοίνυν ἄλλων πέρι μὴ ἀπαιτῶμεν λόγον Ὅμηρον 599c ἢ ἄλλον ὁντινοῦν τῶν ποιητῶν, ἐρωτῶντες εἰ ἰατρικὸς ἦν τις αὐτῶν ἀλλὰ μὴ μιμητὴς μόνον ἰατρικῶν λόγων, τίνας ὑγιεῖς ποιητής τις τῶν παλαιῶν ἢ τῶν νέων λέγεται πεποιηκέναι, ὥσπερ Ἀσκληπιός, ἢ τίνας μαθητὰς ἰατρικῆς κατελίπετο, ὥσπερ ἐκεῖνος τοὺς ἐκγόνους, μηδʼ αὖ περὶ τὰς ἄλλας τέχνας αὐτοὺς ἐρωτῶμεν, ἀλλʼ ἐῶμεν· περὶ δὲ ὧν μεγίστων τε καὶ καλλίστων ἐπιχειρεῖ λέγειν Ὅμηρος, πολέμων τε πέρι καὶ στρατηγιῶν καὶ διοικήσεων πόλεων, καὶ 599d παιδείας πέρι ἀνθρώπου, δίκαιόν που ἐρωτᾶν αὐτὸν πυνθανομένους· ὦ φίλε Ὅμηρε, εἴπερ μὴ τρίτος ἀπὸ τῆς ἀληθείας εἶ ἀρετῆς πέρι, εἰδώλου δημιουργός, ὃν δὴ μιμητὴν ὡρισάμεθα, ἀλλὰ καὶ δεύτερος, καὶ οἷός τε ἦσθα γιγνώσκειν ποῖα ἐπιτηδεύματα βελτίους ἢ χείρους ἀνθρώπους ποιεῖ ἰδίᾳ καὶ δημοσίᾳ, λέγε ἡμῖν τίς τῶν πόλεων διὰ σὲ βέλτιον ᾤκησεν, ὥσπερ διὰ Λυκοῦργον Λακεδαίμων καὶ διʼ ἄλλους πολλοὺς 599e πολλαὶ μεγάλαι τε καὶ σμικραί; σὲ δὲ τίς αἰτιᾶται πόλις νομοθέτην ἀγαθὸν γεγονέναι καὶ σφᾶς ὠφεληκέναι; Χαρώνδαν μὲν γὰρ Ἰταλία καὶ Σικελία, καὶ ἡμεῖς Σόλωνα· σὲ δὲ τίς; ἕξει τινὰ εἰπεῖν;
οὐκ οἶμαι, ἔφη ὁ Γλαύκων· οὔκουν λέγεταί γε οὐδʼ ὑπʼ αὐτῶν Ὁμηριδῶν.

Notes on the current edition

Republic

1. Cf. on 598 B.

2. Cf. 598 B.

3. Cf. Petit de Julleville, Hist. lit. francaise vii. p. 233, on the poet Lamartine’s desire to be a practical statesman, and ibid:

Quand on m’apprendrait que le divin Homère a refusé les charges municipales de Smyrne ou de Colophon, je ne croirais jamais qu’il eût pu mieux mériter de la Grèce en administrant son bourg natal qu’en composant l’ Iliade et l’ Odyssée.

4. But Cf. Symp. 209 D.

5. For the challenge to the poet to specify his knowledge Cf. Ion 536 E f.

6. Cf. Ion 541 A f.

7. Cf. Gorg. 515 B, Laches 186 B.

8. Cf. Laws 630 D, 632 D, 858 E, Symp. 209 D, Phaedr. 258 B, Minos 318 C, Herod. i. 65-66, Xen. Rep. Lac. 1. 2 and passim, Plutarch, Life of Lycurgus.

9. Cf. Symp. 209 D, Phaedr. 258 B, 278 C, Charm. 155 A, 157 E, Prot. 343 A, Tim. 20 E ff., Herod. i. 29 ff. and 86, ii. 177, v. 113, Aristot. Ath. Pol. v. ff., Diog. Laert. i. 45 ff., Plutarch, Life of Solon,Freeman, The Work and Life of Solon.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

τριττὰ ‐‐ ὄντος : ‘are three stages removed from Truth.’ One of Schneider's MSS has τριτὰ ( sic), and Herwerden conjectures τρίτα, comparing τρίτος ἀπὸ τῆς ἀληθείας in D. Possibly Proclus also read τρίτα: see the critical note in Kroll's edition of the in remp. I p. 203. 22. If the numeral is an adjective agreeing with ἔργα, we must certainly read τρίτα, but it may be an accusative of extent, i. q. τρία ἀπέχοντα. I therefore think it safer to retain the MS reading, especially as τριττά was more likely to be corrupted into τρίτα than conversely.

φαντάσματα ‐‐ ποιοῦσιν . 596 E.

ἤ τι καὶ κτλ. : ‘or whether again there is something in what they say.’ ἢ καί is sometimes thus used instead of ἤ, from a feeling that it introduces something additional, viz. an additional alternative. Cf. (with Schneider) Hom. Il. II 238 and Pl. Laws 744 A. The force of ἢ καί in Ap. 27 E , Phaedr. 269 A and infra 602 D, 605 D is nearly, but not quite, the same.

ἐπὶ ‐‐ δημιουργίᾳ depends on σπουδάζειν, rather than on ἀφεῖναι. The word σπουδάζειν is emphatic: he might occasionally παίζειν ἐν τοῖς τοιούτοις, but he would never make it the serious business of his life: cf. infra 602 B, VII 536 C note and Phaedr. 276 C ff. The whole of this passage reminds us very strongly of the depreciatory estimate of written books in the Phaedrus. Cf. 599 B note

τοῦτο ‐‐ ἔχοντα : ‘set this in the forefront of his life as his best possession,’ in accordance with the maxim τὰ καλὰ τρέψαι ἔξω in Pind. Pyth. 3. 83. προστήσασθαι is used like πρόστασις IX 577 A, and προστησάμενοι in VII 531 B is not very different. Others (Schneider, Stallbaum, etc.) think προστήσασθαι κτλ. means ‘to set before his life’ as an aim or goal. In itself, this rendering is unexceptionable; but it does not suit with ὡς βέλτιστον ἔχοντα. The word ἔχοντα cannot be equivalent to ἡγούμενον ‘considering’ (in spite of the exceptional phrase ἐντίμως ἔχειν VII 528 B note); nor is it easy to accept the version of Schneider “und dieses als das beste was er könnte.” The emphasis requires us to take ἔχοντα in its full sense (“als das beste was er habe” Schleiermacher). Stallbaum conjectures ὡς βέλτιστ’ ἂν ἔχοντα, but the text is sound. For βέλτιστον instead of τὸ βέλτιστον cf. (with Schneider) μέγιστον ἀγαθόν in I 330 D.

ἐν τοῖς ἔργοις . ἐπί for ἐν is called for by Herwerden, but cf. Laws 834 B τὰς σπουδὰς—τάς τε ἐν τῇ τροφῇ καὶ τὰς περὶ ἀγωνίαν αὐτῶν. In ἔργοις there is combined the twofold sense of ‘deeds’ and ‘originals’ )( μιμήματα: the originals of dramatic μίμησις are actions (603 C note).

καὶ εἶναι ‐‐ ἐγκωμιάζων . He would rather be Achilles than Homer. There is another side of the question, represented by Pindar's ῥῆμα δ’ ἑργμάτων χρονιώτερον βιοτεύει ( Nem. 4. 6), and by Plato himself very forcibly in Symp. 209 D , and it is certainly unfair to insinuate that no one would write good poems if he were capable of doing great deeds. Some of Plato's expressions in this passage almost suggest the tone of a man of letters pining for a life of action: cf. VI 496 D notes

ὠφελία : not simply to the agent himself: cf. σφᾶς ὠφεληκέναι 599 E.

ἐρωτῶντες κτλ. Cf. Ion 537 C ff., Ap. 22 A —C. τοὺς ἐκγόνους are of course the Asclepiadae: see on III 405 D.

ὡρισάμεθα κτλ. See 597 E f. From ἀλλὰ καὶ δεύτερος we may infer that “the actual law-giver, in Plato's view, is second from reality” (Bosanquet).

τίς τῶν πόλεων κτλ. Contrast Symp. 209 C ff. where Homer and Hesiod are linked with Lycurgus, Solon, καὶ ἄλλοι ἄλλοθι πολλαχοῦ ἄνδρες, καὶ ἐν Ἕλλησι καὶ ἐν βαρβάροις, πολλὰ καὶ καλὰ ἀποφηνάμενοι ἔργα, γεννήσαντες παντοίαν ἀρετήν.

σὲ δὲ τίς κτλ. Yet it is a genuinely Greek sentiment that ‘Poets are the unacknowledged’—a Greek would have said ‘acknowledged’—‘legislators of the world’ (Shelley).

Χαρώνδαν κτλ. Charondas, of Catana in Sicily, the legislator of the Chalcidian colonies in Italy and Sicily, is not elsewhere mentioned by Plato, though frequently by Aristotle: see Susemihl and Hicks on Arist. Pol. A 2. 1252^{b} 14. The date of Charondas is probably the sixth century B.C.: see Niese in Pauly-Wissowa art. Charondas, where the authorities relating to this early legislator are cited and reviewed. It is worth noting, in view of Ἰταλία here and elsewhere in Plato ( Laws 777 C, Tim. 20 A : cf. also Laws 659 B), that an argument against the genuineness of the seventh Platonic Epistle has been derived from the fact that it mentions Italy (326 B, 339 D): see Hermann, Gesch. u. System p. 591 note 213.

Ὁμηριδῶν : ‘votaries of Homer,’ ‘Homer's devotees.’ So the word is rightly explained by Heine ( de rat. quae Pl. c. poet. Gr. intercedit pp. 18—22), and also by Jebb ( Homer p. 78). Cf. Ὁμήρου ἐπαινέταις 606 E and the use of Ὁμηρίδαι in Ion 530 E, Phaedr. 252 B . The original meaning of Ὁμηρίδαι is discussed by Jebb l.c.

ἀλλὰ δή like ἀλλὰ γάρ=‘at enim’ (II 365 C note).

Plato Republic 10.599

Paul Shorey (Translator)

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