Aristotle Poetics 25.25

ed. Henry James Pye

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But whether the things are or are not, what a sensible man might say, can only relate to the things themselves that are said and not to any circumstances attending the saying of them or the things they may have reference to. If a sentiment is such as a sensible man may deliver, it will want no excuse

Poetics. Aristotle. ed. Henry James Pye. London. 1792.

Current edition Experimental

The Poetic of Aristotle (Henry James Pye, revised 1792) (OCR draft) (English) (Henry James Pye's revised 1792 English translation, corrected against the 1788 first edition, aligned to the Kassel reference edition, and supplied with a selective apparatus of substantive 1788 readings.)

Provisional text from uncorrected OCR; expect errors.

Editions (4)
Περὶ ποιητικῆς (OCR draft) (Aristotle, Poetics. Immanuel Bekker, editor, Aristotelis Opera, volume 2. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1837.) — 25 focus
Περὶ ποιητικῆς (OCR draft) Perseus (Aristotle, De arte poetica liber. Rudolf Kassel, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1965. Reference edition for passage alignment.) — 25 focus
Poetics, Greek text (Ingram Bywater, 1909) (OCR draft) Experimental (Ingram Bywater's Greek text of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1909.) — 25 focus
Poetics, Greek text (Franz Ritter, 1839) (OCR draft) Experimental (Franz Ritter's 1839 Greek edition, corrected against OCR of the represented copy and aligned to the conventional Perseus chapter-and-subchapter sequence.) — 25 focus
Translations (13)
Poetics (W. H. Fyfe) (OCR draft) Perseus (William Hamilton Fyfe's English translation of Aristotle's Poetics, Loeb Classical Library, 1939 printing.) — 25 focus
Arabic Poetics (Badawī edition, 1953) (OCR draft) (The ancient Arabic translation of Aristotle's Poetics in ʿAbd al-Raḥmān Badawī's 1953 edition.) — 25 focus
Poetics (S. H. Butcher, 1911) (OCR draft) Experimental (S. H. Butcher's English translation from Aristotle's Theory of Poetry and Fine Art, fourth edition, 1911.) — 25 focus
Aristotle on the Art of Poetry (Ingram Bywater, 1909) (OCR draft) Experimental (Ingram Bywater's English translation of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1909.) — 25 focus
Poetics (Thomas Twining, 1789) (OCR draft) Experimental (Thomas Twining's English translation of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1789 and aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 25.25 focus
Of this kind is the cavil of the critics concerning Icarius 1 . Taking it for granted that he was a Lace-daemonian, they thence infer the absurdity of supposing Telemachus not to have seen him when he went to Lacedaemon. But, perhaps, what the Cephalenians say may be the truth. They assert, that the wife of Ulysses was of their country, and that the name of her father was not Icarius, but Icadius. The objection itself, therefore, is probably founded on a mistake.
The Poetic of Aristotle (Theodore Alois Buckley) (OCR draft) Experimental (Theodore Alois Buckley's English translation, first published in 1850 and represented from the Henry G. Bohn 1857 printing; corrected against a second OCR and aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 25.25 focus
The objection, also, that something is irrational may be solved by saying, that sometimes it is not irrational; for it is probable that what is improbable may have happened. 1 But with respect to the solution of apparent contraries, these are to be considered in the same manner as 2 3 4 5 elenchi20 in arguments, if the same thing [is affirmed or denied], and with respect to the same thing, and after the same manner, and whether it is the same person [who affirms and denies], and also with what reference he speaks, and what a wise man would understand from his words26. 6 The reprehension [of poets] on the score of improbability27 and vicious manners will be right, through which it is shown, that they have without any necessity devised something irrational.
Poetica Latine conversa (Franciscus Ritter, 1839) (OCR draft) Experimental (Franz Ritter's Latin translation, corrected against OCR of the represented copy and aligned to the conventional Perseus chapter-and-subchapter sequence.) — 25 focus
La poëtique d'Aristote (André Dacier, 1692) (OCR draft) Experimental (André Dacier's French translation of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1692.) — 25.25 focus
C'eſt de ce faux préjugé qu'eſt née la Critique qu'on a faite à Homere ſur le ſujet d'Icarius pere de Penelope; car ſes Cenſeurs, prévenus que cet Icarius étoit Lacedemonien, ont fort blâmé ce Poëte de ce que Telemaque arrivant à Lacedemone, va loger ailleurs que chez ſon grand pere. Mais qu'ils faſſent taire auparavant les Cephaleniens, qui ſoûtiennent qu'Ulyſſe ſe maria dans leur païs, & que ſon beau-pere s'appelloit Icadius, & non pas Icarius. Juſques-là, ce qu'ils prennent pour une Critique fort juſte, ne ſera tout au plus qu'une queſtion.
Poetica d'Aristotile (Bernardo Segni, 1549) (OCR draft) Experimental (Bernardo Segni's 1549 Florentine Italian translation, aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 25 focus
De poetica (Antonio Riccobono, 1587) (OCR draft) Experimental (Antonio Riccobono's Latin translation, first published in 1587; text represented from Immanuel Bekker's 1831 edition.) — 25 focus
De arte poetica liber (William of Moerbeke, ca. 1277) (OCR draft) Experimental (William of Moerbeke's medieval Latin translation, represented by the 1953 Aristoteles Latinus edition.) — 25 focus
Arabic Poetics (Abū Bishr Mattā; Tkatsch edition) (OCR draft) Experimental (The Arabic translation attributed to Abū Bishr Mattā, edited by Jaroslaus Tkatsch in 1928 and aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 25 focus
Arabic Poetics (Abū Bishr Mattā; Tkatsch edition, unaligned) (OCR draft) Experimental (Tkatsch's edition of the medieval Arabic translation in its original, unaligned segmentation.) — 25 focus

Commentary

Commentary on the Poetics (Ingram Bywater, 1909) (OCR draft) (Ingram Bywater's English commentary on Aristotle's Poetics.) focus

25. mvp-aristotle-comment-1041

1461b3 τοῦτο δὲ πέπονθε: De anima 1. 5, 410 b 27
τοῦτο δὲ πέπονθε καὶ ὁ ἐν τοῖς Ὀρφικοῖς ἔπεσι καλουμένοις λόγος.

25. mvp-aristotle-comment-1042

1461b4 τὰ περὶ Ἰκάριον. The question which Aristotle regards as based on a mere assumption, survives in Porphyry on Od. 4. 1 (p. 40 Schr.)
διὰ τί ὁ Τηλέμαχος εἰς Λακεδαίμονα ἐλθὼν οὐκ ἐνέτυχε τῷ Ἰκαρίῳ ; καίτοι ἄλογον ἐλθόντα τῷ πατρὶ τῆς μητρὸς μὴ ἐντυχεῖν,
 and in Schol. Od. 1. 285 ( comp. Schol. Od. 2. 52 )
πῶς εἰς Σπάρτην ἐλθὼν οὐ συντυγχάνει Ἰκαρίῳ ;
The assumption of the critics, that the father of Penelope (called in Homer Icarius) was a Lacedaemonian, Aristotle meets by quoting on the other side the Cephallenian tradition which made him a Cephallenian. This same solution of the difficulty reappears incidentally in Schol. Od. 15. 16
ὅτι Ιθακήσιος ὁ Ἰκάριος, οὐ Σπαρτιάτης, ἀδελφὸς Τυνδάρεω ... ὁ δὲ Ἰκάριος ἐκ Μεσσήνης ἦν τῆς Κεφαλληνιακῆς, ἐπεὶ οὐχ ὁρᾶται ἐν Ἰθάκῃ ἀναστρεφόμενος· ἀλλ᾽ οὐδὲ Λάκων· ὅθεν οὐδὲ ἐνέτυχεν αὐτῷ Τηλέμαχος ἐν τῇ εἰς Λακεδαίμονα ἀποδημίᾳ
( comp. E. Meyer, Hermes 30 p. 265 ).

25. mvp-aristotle-comment-1043

τὸ δ᾽ ἴσως: comp. An. post. 1. 9, 76 a 29 ; Soph. el. 1, 165 a 10 .

25. mvp-aristotle-comment-1044

1461b6 Κεφαλλῆνες. Though the form Κεφαληνία is found in the text of H. A. 8. 28, 605 b 27 , there is little doubt that Aristotle must have written the word with a double λ. This is the normal spelling in Attic Inscriptions ( Meisterhans, Gr. p. 96 ), and also in literature, according to Eustathius on Dion. Perieg. 431 ,
τοὺς δὲ Κεφαλλῆνας καὶ τὴν Κεφαλληνίαν ἐν δυσὶ λ ἡ παλαιὰ χρῆσις ἅπασα ἔχει.

25. mvp-aristotle-comment-1045

παρ᾿ αὐτῶν γὰρ γῆμαι. For the preposition comp. Plato Polit. 310 D
γαμοῦσί τε παρὰ τούτων.
 — Isocrates 386 c
ἔγημεν ἐκ Σερίφου παρ᾿ ἀνθρώπων πολὺ πλείονος ἀξίων ἢ κατὰ τὴν αὑτῶν πόλιν, ἐξ ἧς ἐγένετο Σώπαλις.

25. mvp-aristotle-comment-1046

1461b8 Ἰκάδιον. The name is presumably the same as Εἰκάδιος, on which see Fick, Gr. Personennamen p. 296 .
1461b9

25. mvp-aristotle-comment-1047

εἰκός ἐστιν, scil. εἶναι (see on 24, 1459 b 9 ). The alternative is to take the clause (with Madius) as meaning 'it is through an error that the question (i. e. the objection), seems probable and reasonable'.

Remarques sur la poëtique d'Aristote (André Dacier, 1692) (OCR draft) (André Dacier's French commentary on Aristotle's Poetics.) focus

43. mvp-aristotle-comment-639

25.25 43. C'eſt de ce faux préjugé qu'est née la Critique qu'on a faite à Homere ſur le ſujet d'Icarius pere de Penelope; car ces Cenfeurs prévenus que cet Icarius étoit Lacedemonien. ] 1

Commentary on the Poetics (Thomas Twining, 1789) (OCR draft) (Thomas Twining's notes on Aristotle's Poetics, aligned to the Kassel reference edition.) focus

253. mvp-aristotle-comment-253

NOTE 253.

25.25 P. 130. THE OBJECTION ITSELF, THEREFORE, IS PROBABLY FOUNDED ON A MISTAKE.
Δι’ ἁμάρτημα δὲ τὸ πρόβλημα εἰκός ἐστι.
"Metuo ne hic locus corruptus mancusve sit."
Victor. — To give these words any meaning that may not easily be controverted, is, I believe, impossible. I have made them say, what it seems to me most probable that the author meant to say:
"So far is this criticism from proving Homer to be wrong, that it is, itself, probably, founded on a mistake."

Commentarius in Aristotelis Poeticam (Franciscus Ritter, 1839) (OCR draft) (Ritter's Latin commentary, extracted from the 1839 volume, divided by Ritter's chapters and sections, and linked to the corresponding Perseus reference subsections.) focus

16. mvp-aristotle-comment-199

Ritter, cap. 25 § 16

ποσαχῶς ἐνδέχεται: hoc negligenter scribenti concedendum erit. rectius sane ποσαχῶς δὲ ἐνδ. vel τὸ δὲ ποσαχῶς ἐνδ. dedisset, sed hoc quamquam apud Aldum legimus, libris non addicentibus non audeo recipere. - κατά τὴν καταντικρὺ ἤ ὡς Γλαύκων λέγει: dicere voluitsi quis a praeconceptis opinionibus sibi caveat. sed hanc vulgarem sententiam sic ille voluit effari: si quis contra faciat ac Glauco dicit. nimirum is homines temere existimantes et iudicantes reprehenderat. itaque in re manifesta sibi temperare non potuit quo minus provocando ad auctorem lectionis copiam ostentaret. nam hic noster ex eorum numero est qui tum demum aliquid persuasum sibi habent, si alium dicentem id auctorem producere possunt. sed quis ille est? in Rhetoricis III, 1. p. 1403 b 26. Γλαύκων ὁ Τήϊος de recitatione scripsisse dicitur, quem hunc nostrum fuisse nihil est unde pateat: immo quaerendus videtur is qui de Homero scripserit, et talis est Glauco Tarsensis, qui in eo opere quo glossas Homericas persecutus est et de variis vocum significationibus disputavit, aptissime hanc admonitionem proferre potuit. vid. Schol. in Hom. Il. A. 1. μῆνιν: οἱ δὲ περὶ Γλαύκωνα (h. e. Glauco ipse) τὸν Ταρσέα ἠξίουν ὀξύνειν τὸ ὄνομα. Athen. XI. p. 480 F. Γλαύκων δ᾽ ἐν ταῖς γλώσσαις Κυπρίους φησὶ τὴν κοτύλην κύλικα καλεῖν. videtur igitur imprudenter laudare grammaticum qui saltem multo post Aristotelem vixit, quamquam certi quidquam de eius aetate definiri nequit. καὶ αὐτοὶ καταψηφισάμενοι συλλογίζονται: ipsi ratiocinari demum incipiunt, cum secum iam damnarunt ea quae examinare volunt. “ ὅτι δοκεῖ est formula quae a iudicibus aut a concione pronuntiari solet, id quod fugit interpretes. eos Glauco reprehendit qui in expiscandis contrariis tam certi sibi videntur et tam secure agunt, quam illi qui in iudicio vel in concione sententiam suam praeconceptam secum afferunt, non ex rerum expositione hauriunt. - τοῦτο δὲ πέπονθε τὰ περὶ Ἰκάριον - εἶναι Ἰκάδιον ἀλλ' οὐκ Ἰκάριον: illi ad quaestiones solvendas prompti quaerebant, cur Telemachus ad patrem investigandum Lacedaemona profectus ab Homero in quarta Odysseae rhapsodia ad Menelaum, non ad avum Icarium Penelopae matris suae patrem, deducatur. hanc difficultatem hic noster sic solvit: Icarius non fuit Lacedaemonius sed in Cephalenensibus natus, id quod ipsa Cephalenensium fama probatur. aliam huius quaestionis solutionem et certe prudentiorem apud Strabonem (X. p. 708 vel 461 ed. Casaub.) legimus; aliam attulit scholiasta ad Odyss. A. 285. ed. Buttm. p. 37. πῶς εἰς Σπάρτην ἐλθὼν οὐ συντυγχάνει Ἰκαρίῳ; ἢ ἐκείνου καθ' Ὅμηρον ἐν Ἰθάκῃ ὄντος, ἢ ἀπέχθονται αὐτῷ αὐτός τε καὶ ἡ μήτηρ ἀναγκάζοντε αὐτὴν γαμηθῆναι, ὡς αὐτή φησι, “ μάλα δ᾽ ὀτρύνουσι τοκῆες γήμασθαι” ( Τ. 158).