Lucian of Samosata, Vitarum auctio, Austin Morris Harmon (Translator), 23

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STOIC

But the veiled figure turns out to be your own father; so if you don’t know him, you evidently don’t know your own father.

BUYER

Not so: I should unveil him and find out the truth! But to go on—what is the purpose of your wisdom, and what shall you do when you reach the summit of virtue?

STOIC

I shall then devote myself to the chief natural goods, I mean wealth, health, and the like.¹ But first I must go through many preparatory toils, whetting my eyesight with closely-written books, collecting learned comments and stufting myself with solecisms and uncouth words; and to cap all, a man may not become wise until he has taken the hellebore treatment three times running.²

BUYER

These projects of yours are noble and dreadfully courageous. But tobe a Gnipho and a usurer—for I see that this is one of your traits too—what shall we say of this? That it is the mark of a man who has already taken his hellebore-treatment and is consumuinate in virtue?

STOIC

Yes; at any rate money-lending is especially appropriate to a wise man, for as drawing inferences is a specialty of his, and as money-lending and drawing interest is next-door to drawing inferences, the one, like the other, belongs particularly to the scholar: and not only getting simple interest, like other people, but interest upon interest. For don’t you know that there is a first interest and a second interest, the offspring,³ as it were, of the first? And you surely perceive what logic says: “If he gets the first interest, he will get the second; but he will get the first, ergo he will get the second.”

Vitarum auctio. Lucian of Samosata. Austin Morris Harmon (Translator). United States. Perseus 5.0.

Funding provided by National Endowment for the Humanities.

Current edition Perseus

Philosophies for Sale (English) (Lucian, Vol. 2. Harmon, Austin Morris, editor. London: William Heinemann, Ltd.; Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1915.)

Editions (1)

Βίων Πρᾶσις Perseus (Lucian, Vol. 2. Harmon, Austin Morris, editor. London: William Heinemann, Ltd.; Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1915.) — 23 focus

Χρύσιππος

ἀλλὰ μὴν αὐτὸς οὗτος ἦν ὁ πατὴρ ὁ σός· ὥστε εἰ τοῦτον ἀγνοεῖς, δῆλος εἶ τὸν πατέρα τὸν σὸν ἀγνοῶν.

Ἀγοράστης

οὐ μὲν οὖν· ἀλλʼ ἀποκαλύψας αὐτὸν εἴσομαι τὴν ἀλήθειαν. ὅμως δʼ οὖν τί σοι τῆς σοφίας τὸ τέλος, ἢ τί πράξεις πρὸς τὸ ἀκρότατον τῆς ἀρετῆς ἀφικόμενος;

Χρύσιππος

περὶ τὰ πρῶτα κατὰ φύσιν τότε γενήσομαι, λέγω δὲ πλοῦτον, ὑγίειαν καὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα. πρότερον δὲ ἀνάγκη πολλὰ προπονῆσαι λεπτογράφοις βιβλίοις παραθήγοντα τὴν ὄψιν καὶ σχόλια συναγείροντα καὶ σολοικισμῶν ἐμπιπλάμενον καὶ ἀτόπων ῥημάτων· καὶ τὸ κεφάλαιον, οὐ θέμις γενέσθαι σοφόν, ἢν μὴ τρὶς ἐφεξῆς τοῦ ἐλλεβόρου πίῃς.

Ἀγοράστης

γενναῖά σου ταῦτα καὶ δεινῶς ἀνδρικά. τὸ δὲ Γνίφωνα εἶναι καὶ τοκογλύφον — καὶ γὰρ τάδε ὁρῶ σοι προσόντα — τί φῶμεν, ἀνδρὸς ἤδη πεπωκότος τὸν ἐλλέβορον καὶ τελείου πρὸς ἀρετήν;

Χρύσιππος

ναί· μόνῳ γοῦν τὸ δανείζειν πρέποι ἂν τῷ σοφῷ· ἐπεὶ γὰρ ἴδιον αὐτοῦ συλλογίζεσθαι, τὸ δανείζειν δὲ καὶ λογίζεσθαι τοὺς τόκους πλησίον εἶναι δοκεῖ τῷ συλλογίζεσθαι, μόνου ἂν εἴη τοῦ σπουδαίου καθάπερ ἐκεῖνο καὶ τοῦτο, καὶ οὐ μόνον γε ἁπλοῦς, ὥσπερ οἱ ἄλλοι, τοὺς τόκους, ἀλλὰ καὶ τούτων ἑτέρους τόκους λαμβάνειν· ἢ γὰρ ἀγνοεῖς ὅτι τῶν τόκων οἱ μέν εἰσι πρῶτοί τινες, οἱ δὲ δεύτεροι, καθάπερ αὐτῶν ἐκείνων ἀπόγονοι; ὁρᾷς δὲ δὴ καὶ τὸν συλλογισμὸν ὁποῖά φησιν· εἰ τὸν πρῶτον τόκον λήψεται, λήψετα¹ι καὶ τὸν δεύτερον· ἀλλὰ μὴν τὸν πρῶτον λήψεται, λήψεται² ἄρα καὶ τὸν δεύτερον·.

Translations (2)

Sale of Creeds Perseus (The Works of Lucian of Samosata, Vol. 1. Fowler, Henry Watson and Fowler, Francis George, translators. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.) — 23 focus

Chrysippus

Well, but the Man in the Hood is your father. You don’t know the Man in the Hood. Therefore you don’t know your own father.

Seventh Dealer

Why, no. But if I take his hood off, I shall get at the facts. Now tell me, what is the end of your philosophy? What happens when you reach the goal of virtue?

Chrysippus

In regard to things external, health, wealth, and the like, I am then all that Nature intended me to be. But there is much previous toil to be undergone. You will first sharpen your eyes on minute manuscripts, amass commentaries, and get your bellyful of outlandish terms. Last but not least, it is forbidden to be wise without repeated doses of hellebore.

Seventh Dealer

All this is exalted and magnanimous to a degree. But what am I to think when I find that you are also the creed of cent-per-cent, the creed of the usurer? Has be swallowed his hellebore? is be made perfect in virtue?

Chrysippus

Assuredly. On none but the wise man does usury sit well, Consider. His is the art of putting two and two together, and usury is the art of putting interest together. The two are evidently connected, and one as much as the other is the prerogative of the true believer; who, not content, like common men, with simple interest, will also take interest upon interest. For interest, as you are probably aware, is of two kinds. There is simple interest, and there is its offspring, compound interest. Hear Syllogism on the subject. ‘If I take simple interest, I shall also take compound. But I shall take simple interest: therefore I shall take compound.’

The Sale of Lives Perseus (Lucian. Selections from Lucian. Smith, Emily James, translator. New York: Harper Brothers, 1892.) — 23 focus

Chrysippos

And yet this very person was your father! Therefore, if you do not know him, it is plain you do not know your father.

Buyer

Not at all, for if I unveil him I shall know the truth. However, what is the object of your philosophy? What do you do when you have reached the pinnacle of virtue?

Chrysippos

I shall then be occupied with the first things in the order of nature-riches, I mean, and health, and such like things. But before that one must needs toil much, sharpening his sight on books in fine print, taking notes, and filling himself with solecisms aand uncouth phrases. Most important of all, it is not permitted to become a sage until you have drunk hellebore three times in succession.

Buyer

This is all very noble in you and extremely manly. But what are we to say when a man, who has already drunk the hellebore and arrived at virtue, turns money - lender at fifty per cent., for I see this belongs to your principles too?

Chrysippos

By all means. The sage is the only man fit to lend money; for since ratiocination is his peculiar function, and calculating ratios and per cents. seems to be the next thing to ratiocinating, it follows from these premises that the special business of the good man alone is to get not only simple interest like other people, but compound. For you know there are two sorts of interest, one sort coming first, and the other second, as it were the offspring of the first, and of course you see what the syllogism has to say about it if he gets the simple interest, he will also get the compound, but he does get the simple interest, therefore he will also get the compound.

Notes on the current edition

Philosophies for Sale

1. As the Stoics set great store by “living in harmony with nature,” they divided “things which did not matter” into the “acceptable” and the ‘ unacceptable” according as they were in or out of harmony with the natural wants of man. This did not supersede the classification alluded to above, but was convenient because it enabled them to dispose of certain things which were hard to classify on the other basis. For instance, a good complexion is neither “approved” nor "disapproved” as an aid to the acquirement of virtue, but it is in harmony with nature, and therefore “‘ acceptable.” Hence the Stoics were often accused (as they are constantly accused by indirection in this dialogue) of setting up a double standard.

2. A hit at Chrysippus. Hellebore was the specific for insanity, and rumour said that Chrysippus had taken the treatment three times (cf. True Story, 2, 18).

3. A play upon τάκος, which is literally "offspring.”

Lucian of Samosata Vitarum auctio 23

Austin Morris Harmon (Translator)

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STOIC

But the veiled figure turns out to be your own father; so if you don’t know him, you evidently don’t know your own father.

BUYER

Not so: I should unveil him and find out the truth! But to go on—what is the purpose of your wisdom, and what shall you do when you reach the summit of virtue?

BUYER

These projects of yours are noble and dreadfully courageous. But tobe a Gnipho and a usurer—for I see that this is one of your traits too—what shall we say of this? That it is the mark of a man who has already taken his hellebore-treatment and is consumuinate in virtue?

Current edition Perseus

Χρύσιππος

ἀλλὰ μὴν αὐτὸς οὗτος ἦν ὁ πατὴρ ὁ σός· ὥστε εἰ τοῦτον ἀγνοεῖς, δῆλος εἶ τὸν πατέρα τὸν σὸν ἀγνοῶν.

Chrysippus

Well, but the Man in the Hood is your father. You don’t know the Man in the Hood. Therefore you don’t know your own father.

Seventh Dealer

Why, no. But if I take his hood off, I shall get at the facts. Now tell me, what is the end of your philosophy? What happens when you reach the goal of virtue?

Seventh Dealer

All this is exalted and magnanimous to a degree. But what am I to think when I find that you are also the creed of cent-per-cent, the creed of the usurer? Has be swallowed his hellebore? is be made perfect in virtue?

Chrysippos

And yet this very person was your father! Therefore, if you do not know him, it is plain you do not know your father.

Buyer

Not at all, for if I unveil him I shall know the truth. However, what is the object of your philosophy? What do you do when you have reached the pinnacle of virtue?

Buyer

This is all very noble in you and extremely manly. But what are we to say when a man, who has already drunk the hellebore and arrived at virtue, turns money - lender at fifty per cent., for I see this belongs to your principles too?

Notes on the current edition

Stable identifiers

Search the Perseus Catalog for:

Search the Perseus Catalog for:

STOIC But the veiled figure turns out to be your own father; so if you don’t know him, you evidently don’t know your own father.

BUYER Not so: I should unveil him and find out the truth! But to go on—what is the purpose of your wisdom, and what shall you do when you reach the summit of virtue?

BUYER These projects of yours are noble and dreadfully courageous. But tobe a Gnipho and a usurer—for I see that this is one of your traits too—what shall we say of this? That it is the mark of a man who has already taken his hellebore-treatment and is consumuinate in virtue?

Current edition Perseus

Χρύσιππος ἀλλὰ μὴν αὐτὸς οὗτος ἦν ὁ πατὴρ ὁ σός· ὥστε εἰ τοῦτον ἀγνοεῖς, δῆλος εἶ τὸν πατέρα τὸν σὸν ἀγνοῶν.

Chrysippus Well, but the Man in the Hood is your father. You don’t know the Man in the Hood. Therefore you don’t know your own father.

Seventh Dealer Why, no. But if I take his hood off, I shall get at the facts. Now tell me, what is the end of your philosophy? What happens when you reach the goal of virtue?

Seventh Dealer All this is exalted and magnanimous to a degree. But what am I to think when I find that you are also the creed of cent-per-cent, the creed of the usurer? Has be swallowed his hellebore? is be made perfect in virtue?

Chrysippos And yet this very person was your father! Therefore, if you do not know him, it is plain you do not know your father.

Buyer Not at all, for if I unveil him I shall know the truth. However, what is the object of your philosophy? What do you do when you have reached the pinnacle of virtue?

Buyer This is all very noble in you and extremely manly. But what are we to say when a man, who has already drunk the hellebore and arrived at virtue, turns money - lender at fifty per cent., for I see this belongs to your principles too?

Notes on the current edition

Stable identifiers

STOIC

But the veiled figure turns out to be your own father; so if you don’t know him, you evidently don’t know your own father.

BUYER

Not so: I should unveil him and find out the truth! But to go on—what is the purpose of your wisdom, and what shall you do when you reach the summit of virtue?

BUYER

These projects of yours are noble and dreadfully courageous. But tobe a Gnipho and a usurer—for I see that this is one of your traits too—what shall we say of this? That it is the mark of a man who has already taken his hellebore-treatment and is consumuinate in virtue?

Χρύσιππος

ἀλλὰ μὴν αὐτὸς οὗτος ἦν ὁ πατὴρ ὁ σός· ὥστε εἰ τοῦτον ἀγνοεῖς, δῆλος εἶ τὸν πατέρα τὸν σὸν ἀγνοῶν.

Chrysippus

Well, but the Man in the Hood is your father. You don’t know the Man in the Hood. Therefore you don’t know your own father.

Seventh Dealer

Why, no. But if I take his hood off, I shall get at the facts. Now tell me, what is the end of your philosophy? What happens when you reach the goal of virtue?

Seventh Dealer

All this is exalted and magnanimous to a degree. But what am I to think when I find that you are also the creed of cent-per-cent, the creed of the usurer? Has be swallowed his hellebore? is be made perfect in virtue?

Chrysippos

And yet this very person was your father! Therefore, if you do not know him, it is plain you do not know your father.

Buyer

Not at all, for if I unveil him I shall know the truth. However, what is the object of your philosophy? What do you do when you have reached the pinnacle of virtue?

Buyer

This is all very noble in you and extremely manly. But what are we to say when a man, who has already drunk the hellebore and arrived at virtue, turns money - lender at fifty per cent., for I see this belongs to your principles too?