Lucian of Samosata, Vitarum auctio, Austin Morris Harmon (Translator), 22

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BUYER

Oh, what subtlety! And what else do you claim to know best?

STOIC

The word-snares with which I entangle those who converse with me and stop their mouths and make them hold their peace, putting a very muzzle on them. This power is called the syllogism of wide renown.¹

BUYER

Heracles! An invincible and mighty thing, by what you say.

STOIC

See for yourself. Have you a child?

BUYER

What of it?

STOIC

If a crocodile should seize it on finding it straying beside the river, and then should promise to give it back to you if you told him truly what he intended to do about giving it back, what would you say he had made up his mind to do?²

BUYER

Your question is hard to answer, for I don’t know which alternative I should follow in my reply, in order to get back the child. Come, in Heaven’s name answer it yourself and save the child for me, for fear the beast may get ahead of us and devour it!

STOIC

Courage! I'll teach you other things that are more wonderful.

BUYER

What are they?

STOIC

The Reaper, the Master,³ and above all, the Electra and the Veiled Figure.

BUYER

What do you mean by the Veiled Figure and the Electra?

STOIC

The Electra is the famous Electra, the daughter of Agamemnon, who at once knew and did not know the same thing; for when Orestes stood beside her before the recognition she knew that Orestes was her brother, but did not know that this was Orestes.⁴ As to the Veiled Figure, you shall hear a very wonderful argument. Tell me, do you know your own father?

BUYER

Yes.

STOIC

But if I put a veiled figure before you and asked you if you know him, what will you say?

BUYER

That I don’t, of course.

Vitarum auctio. Lucian of Samosata. Austin Morris Harmon (Translator). United States. Perseus 5.0.

Funding provided by National Endowment for the Humanities.

Current edition Perseus

Philosophies for Sale (English) (Lucian, Vol. 2. Harmon, Austin Morris, editor. London: William Heinemann, Ltd.; Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1915.)

Editions (1)

Βίων Πρᾶσις Perseus (Lucian, Vol. 2. Harmon, Austin Morris, editor. London: William Heinemann, Ltd.; Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1915.) — 22 focus

Ἀγοράστης

ὢ τῆς ἀγχινοίας· τί δὲ ἄλλο μάλιστα φὴς εἰδέναι;

Χρύσιππος

τὰς τῶν λόγων πλεκτάνας αἷς συμποδίζω τοὺς προσομιλοῦντας καὶ ἀποφράττω καὶ σιωπᾶν ποιῶ, φιμὸν ἀτεχνῶς αὐτοῖς περιτιθείς· ὄνομα δὲ τῇ δυνάμει ταύτῃ ὁ ἀοίδιμος συλλογισμός.

Ἀγοράστης

Ἡράκλεις, ἄμαχόν τινα καὶ βίαιον λέγεις.

Χρύσιππος

σκόπει γοῦν· ἔστι σοι παιδίον;

Ἀγοράστης

τί μήν;

Χρύσιππος

τοῦτο ἤν πως κροκόδειλος ἁρπάσῃ πλησίον τοῦ ποταμοῦ πλαζόμενον εὑρών, κᾆτά σοι ἀποδώσειν ὑπισχνῆται¹ αὐτό, ἢν εἴπῃς τἀληθὲς ὅ τι δέδοκται αὐτῷ περὶ τῆς ἀποδόσεως τοῦ βρέφους, τί φήσεις αὐτὸν ἐγνωκέναι;

Ἀγοράστης

δυσαπόκριτον ἐρωτᾷς. ἀπορῶ γὰρ ὁπότερον εἰπὼν ἀπολάβοιμι. ἀλλὰ σὺ πρὸς Διὸς ἀποκρινάμενος ἀνάσωσαί μοι τὸ παιδίον, μὴ καὶ φθάσῃ αὐτὸ καταπιών.

Χρύσιππος

θάρρει· καὶ ἄλλα γάρ σε διδάξομαι θαυμασιώτερα.

Ἀγοράστης

τὰ ποῖα;

Χρύσιππος

τὸν θερίζοντα καὶ τὸν κυριεύοντα καὶ ἐπὶ πᾶσι τὴν Ἠλέκτραν καὶ τὸν ἐγκεκαλυμμένον.

Ἀγοράστης

τίνα τοῦτον τὸν ἐγκεκαλυμμένον ἢ τίνα τὴν Ἠλέκτραν λέγεις;

Χρύσιππος

Ἠλέκτραν μὲν ἐκείνην τὴν πάνυ, τὴν Ἀγαμέμνονος, ἣ τὰ αὐτὰ οἶδέ τε ἅμα καὶ οὐκ οἶδε· παρεστῶτος γὰρ αὐτῇ τοῦ Ὀρέστου ἔτι ἀγνῶτος οἶδε μὲν Ὀρέστην, ὅτι ἀδελφὸς αὐτῆς, ὅτι δὲ οὗτος Ὀρέστης ἀγνοεῖ. τὸν δʼ αὖ ἐγκεκαλυμμένον καὶ πάνυ θαυμαστὸν ἀκούσῃ λόγον· ἀπόκριναι γάρ μοι, τὸν πατέρα οἶσθα τὸν σεαυτοῦ;

Ἀγοράστης

ναί.

Χρύσιππος

τί οὖν; ἤν σοι παραστήσας τινὰ ἐγκεκαλυμμένον ἔρωμαι, τοῦτον οἶσθα; τί φήσεις;

Ἀγοράστης

δηλαδὴ ἀγνοεῖν.

Translations (2)

Sale of Creeds Perseus (The Works of Lucian of Samosata, Vol. 1. Fowler, Henry Watson and Fowler, Francis George, translators. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.) — 22 focus

Seventh Dealer

Oh, subtle! What else can you tell me?

Chrysippus

I have verbal involutions, for the better hampering, crippling, and muzzling of my antagonists. This is performed by the use of the far-famed syllogism.

Seventh Dealer

Syllogism! I warrant him a tough customer.

Chrysippus

Take a case. You have a child?

Seventh Dealer

Well, and what if I have?

Chrysippus

A crocodile catches him as he wanders along the bank of a river, and promises to restore him to you, if you will first guess correctly whether he means to restore him or not. Which are you going to say?

Seventh Dealer

A difficult question. I don’t know which way I should get him back soonest. In Heaven’s hame, answer for me, and save the child before he is eaten up.

Chrysippus

Ha, ha. I will teach you far other things than that.

Seventh Dealer

For instance?

Chrysippus

There is the ‘Reaper.’ There is the ‘Rightful Owner.’ Better still, there is the ‘Electra’ and the ‘Man in the Hood.’

Seventh Dealer

Who was he? and who was Electra?

Chrysippus

She was the Electra, the daughter of Agamemnon, to whom the same thing was known and unknown at the same time. She knew that Orestes was her brother: yet when he stood before her she did not know (until he revealed himself) that her brother was Orestes. As to the Man in the Hood, he will surprise you considerably. Answer me now: do you know your own father?

Seventh Dealer

Yes.

Chrysippus

Well now, if I present to you a man in a hood, shall you know him? eh?

Seventh Dealer

Of course not.

The Sale of Lives Perseus (Lucian. Selections from Lucian. Smith, Emily James, translator. New York: Harper Brothers, 1892.) — 22 focus

Buyer

What else, now, do you claim to know?

Buyer

How clever!

Chrysippos

The meshes of argument wherewith I trip up my interlocutors and block their passage and reduce them to silence by actually muzzling them. The name of this faculty is the famous syllogism.

Buyer

By Herkules, it is an irresistible, mighty weapon, from your description.

Chrysippos

I will give you a specimen. Have you a child?

Buyer

Certainly.

Chrysippos

If a crocodile should manage to snatch it, finding it wandering too near the river, and if, then, he should promise to restore it if you could tell him truly whether he had determined to give it back or not, what would you tell him he had in mind?

Buyer

That is a difficult question, for I do not see which answer would be the more likely to get the child back. But do you, in Heaven's name, answer for me, and save my child before he eats him.

Chrysippos

Never fear, I will teach you other things still more surprising.

Buyer

What sort of things?

Chrysippos

The Reaper, the Master, and, above all, the Elektra, and the Veiled.

Buyer

What do you mean by the "Veiled," or the "Elektra?"

Chrysippos

Elektra is that famous person, the daughter of Agamemnon, who at the same moment knows a thing and does not know it; for when Orestes stands beside her, still incognito, she knows, indeed, that Orestes is her brother, but that this is Orestes she does not know. And I will tell you about the "Veiled," too, a most extraordinary figure. Answer me, do you know your father?

Buyer

Yes.

Chrysippos

Well, then, if I present some veiled person to you and ask whether you know him, what would you say?

Buyer

That I do not, of course.

Notes on the current edition

Philosophies for Sale

1. The Stoics were noted for their attention to logic and in especial to fallacies. Chrysippus wrote a book on syllogisms, mentioned in the Icuromenippus (311).

2. The commentators do not seem to have noticed that Lucian has (intentionally) spoiled the sophism by using the words δέδοικα and ἐγνωκέναι. It is perfectly possible for the father to guess what the crocodile “had made up his mind” to do, and so to get the child back: for an intention need not be executed. The crocodile should ask, ‘* Am I going to (μέλλω) give up the child?” Then, if the father answers “Yes,” he will say ‘ You are wrong,” and eat it: and if the father says “No,” he will reply “You are right; therefore I am not going to give it up.”

3. Neither of these are accurately known. The Reaper was based on the fallacious employment of the negative, and proved that a man who was going to reap a field could not possibly reap it. Zeno, the founder of the Stoic school, is said to have paid 200 minas to a logician who taught him seven varieties of this fallacy. The Master consisted of four propositions, of which you could take any three and disprove the fourth.

4. Here again Lucian does scant justice to the fallacy, which he really gives away by his statement of it. It should run: ‘she at once knew and did not know that Orestes was her brother, for she did not know that this man was her brother; but this man was Orestes.”

Search the Perseus Catalog for:

Search the Perseus Catalog for:

BUYER Oh, what subtlety! And what else do you claim to know best?

STOIC The word-snares with which I entangle those who converse with me and stop their mouths and make them hold their peace, putting a very muzzle on them. This power is called the syllogism of wide renown. 1

BUYER Heracles! An invincible and mighty thing, by what you say.

STOIC See for yourself. Have you a child?

BUYER What of it?

STOIC If a crocodile should seize it on finding it straying beside the river, and then should promise to give it back to you if you told him truly what he intended to do about giving it back, what would you say he had made up his mind to do? 2

BUYER Your question is hard to answer, for I don’t know which alternative I should follow in my reply, in order to get back the child. Come, in Heaven’s name answer it yourself and save the child for me, for fear the beast may get ahead of us and devour it!

STOIC Courage! I'll teach you other things that are more wonderful.

BUYER What are they?

STOIC The Reaper, the Master, 3 and above all, the Electra and the Veiled Figure.

BUYER What do you mean by the Veiled Figure and the Electra?

BUYER Yes.

STOIC But if I put a veiled figure before you and asked you if you know him, what will you say?

BUYER That I don’t, of course.

Current edition Perseus

Ἀγοράστης ὢ τῆς ἀγχινοίας· τί δὲ ἄλλο μάλιστα φὴς εἰδέναι;

Ἀγοράστης Ἡράκλεις, ἄμαχόν τινα καὶ βίαιον λέγεις.

Χρύσιππος σκόπει γοῦν· ἔστι σοι παιδίον;

Ἀγοράστης τί μήν;

Χρύσιππος θάρρει· καὶ ἄλλα γάρ σε διδάξομαι θαυμασιώτερα.

Ἀγοράστης τὰ ποῖα;

Χρύσιππος τὸν θερίζοντα καὶ τὸν κυριεύοντα καὶ ἐπὶ πᾶσι τὴν Ἠλέκτραν καὶ τὸν ἐγκεκαλυμμένον.

Ἀγοράστης τίνα τοῦτον τὸν ἐγκεκαλυμμένον ἢ τίνα τὴν Ἠλέκτραν λέγεις;

Ἀγοράστης ναί.

Χρύσιππος τί οὖν; ἤν σοι παραστήσας τινὰ ἐγκεκαλυμμένον ἔρωμαι, τοῦτον οἶσθα; τί φήσεις;

Ἀγοράστης δηλαδὴ ἀγνοεῖν.

Seventh Dealer Oh, subtle! What else can you tell me?

Chrysippus I have verbal involutions, for the better hampering, crippling, and muzzling of my antagonists. This is performed by the use of the far-famed syllogism.

Seventh Dealer Syllogism! I warrant him a tough customer.

Chrysippus Take a case. You have a child?

Seventh Dealer Well, and what if I have?

Chrysippus A crocodile catches him as he wanders along the bank of a river, and promises to restore him to you, if you will first guess correctly whether he means to restore him or not. Which are you going to say?

Seventh Dealer A difficult question. I don’t know which way I should get him back soonest. In Heaven’s hame, answer for me, and save the child before he is eaten up.

Chrysippus Ha, ha. I will teach you far other things than that.

Seventh Dealer For instance?

Chrysippus There is the ‘Reaper.’ There is the ‘Rightful Owner.’ Better still, there is the ‘Electra’ and the ‘Man in the Hood.’

Seventh Dealer Who was he? and who was Electra?

Seventh Dealer Yes.

Chrysippus Well now, if I present to you a man in a hood, shall you know him? eh?

Seventh Dealer Of course not.

Buyer What else, now, do you claim to know?

Buyer How clever!

Chrysippos The meshes of argument wherewith I trip up my interlocutors and block their passage and reduce them to silence by actually muzzling them. The name of this faculty is the famous syllogism.

Buyer By Herkules, it is an irresistible, mighty weapon, from your description.

Chrysippos I will give you a specimen. Have you a child?

Buyer Certainly.

Chrysippos If a crocodile should manage to snatch it, finding it wandering too near the river, and if, then, he should promise to restore it if you could tell him truly whether he had determined to give it back or not, what would you tell him he had in mind?

Buyer That is a difficult question, for I do not see which answer would be the more likely to get the child back. But do you, in Heaven's name, answer for me, and save my child before he eats him.

Chrysippos Never fear, I will teach you other things still more surprising.

Buyer What sort of things?

Chrysippos The Reaper, the Master, and, above all, the Elektra, and the Veiled.

Buyer What do you mean by the "Veiled," or the "Elektra?"

Buyer Yes.

Chrysippos Well, then, if I present some veiled person to you and ask whether you know him, what would you say?

Buyer That I do not, of course.

Notes on the current edition

Stable identifiers

BUYER

Oh, what subtlety! And what else do you claim to know best?

STOIC

The word-snares with which I entangle those who converse with me and stop their mouths and make them hold their peace, putting a very muzzle on them. This power is called the syllogism of wide renown.¹

BUYER

Heracles! An invincible and mighty thing, by what you say.

STOIC

See for yourself. Have you a child?

BUYER

What of it?

STOIC

If a crocodile should seize it on finding it straying beside the river, and then should promise to give it back to you if you told him truly what he intended to do about giving it back, what would you say he had made up his mind to do?²

BUYER

Your question is hard to answer, for I don’t know which alternative I should follow in my reply, in order to get back the child. Come, in Heaven’s name answer it yourself and save the child for me, for fear the beast may get ahead of us and devour it!

STOIC

Courage! I'll teach you other things that are more wonderful.

BUYER

What are they?

STOIC

The Reaper, the Master,³ and above all, the Electra and the Veiled Figure.

BUYER

What do you mean by the Veiled Figure and the Electra?

BUYER

Yes.

STOIC

But if I put a veiled figure before you and asked you if you know him, what will you say?

BUYER

That I don’t, of course.

Ἀγοράστης

ὢ τῆς ἀγχινοίας· τί δὲ ἄλλο μάλιστα φὴς εἰδέναι;

Ἀγοράστης

Ἡράκλεις, ἄμαχόν τινα καὶ βίαιον λέγεις.

Χρύσιππος

σκόπει γοῦν· ἔστι σοι παιδίον;

Ἀγοράστης

τί μήν;

Χρύσιππος

θάρρει· καὶ ἄλλα γάρ σε διδάξομαι θαυμασιώτερα.

Ἀγοράστης

τὰ ποῖα;

Χρύσιππος

τὸν θερίζοντα καὶ τὸν κυριεύοντα καὶ ἐπὶ πᾶσι τὴν Ἠλέκτραν καὶ τὸν ἐγκεκαλυμμένον.

Ἀγοράστης

τίνα τοῦτον τὸν ἐγκεκαλυμμένον ἢ τίνα τὴν Ἠλέκτραν λέγεις;

Ἀγοράστης

ναί.

Χρύσιππος

τί οὖν; ἤν σοι παραστήσας τινὰ ἐγκεκαλυμμένον ἔρωμαι, τοῦτον οἶσθα; τί φήσεις;

Ἀγοράστης

δηλαδὴ ἀγνοεῖν.

Seventh Dealer

Oh, subtle! What else can you tell me?

Chrysippus

I have verbal involutions, for the better hampering, crippling, and muzzling of my antagonists. This is performed by the use of the far-famed syllogism.

Seventh Dealer

Syllogism! I warrant him a tough customer.

Chrysippus

Take a case. You have a child?

Seventh Dealer

Well, and what if I have?

Chrysippus

A crocodile catches him as he wanders along the bank of a river, and promises to restore him to you, if you will first guess correctly whether he means to restore him or not. Which are you going to say?

Seventh Dealer

A difficult question. I don’t know which way I should get him back soonest. In Heaven’s hame, answer for me, and save the child before he is eaten up.

Chrysippus

Ha, ha. I will teach you far other things than that.

Seventh Dealer

For instance?

Chrysippus

There is the ‘Reaper.’ There is the ‘Rightful Owner.’ Better still, there is the ‘Electra’ and the ‘Man in the Hood.’

Seventh Dealer

Who was he? and who was Electra?

Seventh Dealer

Yes.

Chrysippus

Well now, if I present to you a man in a hood, shall you know him? eh?

Seventh Dealer

Of course not.

Buyer

What else, now, do you claim to know?

Buyer

How clever!

Chrysippos

The meshes of argument wherewith I trip up my interlocutors and block their passage and reduce them to silence by actually muzzling them. The name of this faculty is the famous syllogism.

Buyer

By Herkules, it is an irresistible, mighty weapon, from your description.

Chrysippos

I will give you a specimen. Have you a child?

Buyer

Certainly.

Chrysippos

If a crocodile should manage to snatch it, finding it wandering too near the river, and if, then, he should promise to restore it if you could tell him truly whether he had determined to give it back or not, what would you tell him he had in mind?

Buyer

That is a difficult question, for I do not see which answer would be the more likely to get the child back. But do you, in Heaven's name, answer for me, and save my child before he eats him.

Chrysippos

Never fear, I will teach you other things still more surprising.

Buyer

What sort of things?

Chrysippos

The Reaper, the Master, and, above all, the Elektra, and the Veiled.

Buyer

What do you mean by the "Veiled," or the "Elektra?"

Buyer

Yes.

Chrysippos

Well, then, if I present some veiled person to you and ask whether you know him, what would you say?

Buyer

That I do not, of course.