Plato, Republic, ed. John Burnet, 5.453

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[453]
ἆρʼ οὖν οὐ πρῶτον μὲν τοῦτο περὶ αὐτῶν ἀνομολογητέον, εἰ δυνατὰ ἢ οὔ, καὶ δοτέον ἀμφισβήτησιν εἴτε τις φιλοπαίσμων εἴτε σπουδαστικὸς ἐθέλει ἀμφισβητῆσαι, πότερον 453a δυνατὴ φύσις ἡ ἀνθρωπίνη ἡ θήλεια τῇ τοῦ ἄρρενος γένους κοινωνῆσαι εἰς ἅπαντα τὰ ἔργα ἢ οὐδʼ εἰς ἕν, ἢ εἰς τὰ μὲν οἵα τε, εἰς δὲ τὰ οὔ, καὶ τοῦτο δὴ τὸ περὶ τὸν πόλεμον ποτέρων ἐστίν; ἆρʼ οὐχ οὕτως ἂν κάλλιστά τις ἀρχόμενος ὡς τὸ εἰκὸς καὶ κάλλιστα τελευτήσειεν;
πολύ γε, ἔφη.
βούλει οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἡμεῖς πρὸς ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς ὑπὲρ τῶν ἄλλων ἀμφισβητήσωμεν, ἵνα μὴ ἔρημα τὰ τοῦ ἑτέρου λόγου πολιορκῆται; 453b
οὐδέν, ἔφη, κωλύει.
λέγωμεν δὴ ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν ὅτι ὦ Σώκρατές τε καὶ Γλαύκων, οὐδὲν δεῖ ὑμῖν ἄλλους ἀμφισβητεῖν· αὐτοὶ γὰρ ἐν ἀρχῇ τῆς κατοικίσεως, ἣν ᾠκίζετε πόλιν, ὡμολογεῖτε δεῖν κατὰ φύσιν ἕκαστον ἕνα ἓν τὸ αὑτοῦ πράττειν.
ὡμολογήσαμεν οἶμαι· πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
ἔστιν οὖν ὅπως οὐ πάμπολυ διαφέρει γυνὴ ἀνδρὸς τὴν φύσιν;
πῶς δʼ οὐ διαφέρει;
οὐκοῦν ἄλλο καὶ ἔργον ἑκατέρῳ προσήκει προστάττειν 453c τὸ κατὰ τὴν αὑτοῦ φύσιν;
τί μήν;
πῶς οὖν οὐχ ἁμαρτάνετε νυνὶ καὶ τἀναντία ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς λέγετε φάσκοντες αὖ τοὺς ἄνδρας καὶ τὰς γυναῖκας δεῖν τὰ αὐτὰ πράττειν, πλεῖστον κεχωρισμένην φύσιν ἔχοντας; ἕξεις τι, ὦ θαυμάσιε, πρὸς ταῦτʼ ἀπολογεῖσθαι;
ὡς μὲν ἐξαίφνης, ἔφη, οὐ πάνυ ῥᾴδιον· ἀλλὰ σοῦ δεήσομαί τε καὶ δέομαι καὶ τὸν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν λόγον, ὅστις ποτʼ ἐστίν, ἑρμηνεῦσαι.
ταῦτʼ ἐστίν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Γλαύκων, καὶ ἄλλα πολλὰ 453d τοιαῦτα, ἃ ἐγὼ πάλαι προορῶν ἐφοβούμην τε καὶ ὤκνουν ἅπτεσθαι τοῦ νόμου τοῦ περὶ τὴν τῶν γυναικῶν καὶ παίδων κτῆσιν καὶ τροφήν.
οὐ μὰ τὸν Δία, ἔφη· οὐ γὰρ εὐκόλῳ ἔοικεν.
οὐ γάρ, εἶπον. ἀλλὰ δὴ ὧδʼ ἔχει· ἄντε τις εἰς κολυμβήθραν μικρὰν ἐμπέσῃ ἄντε εἰς τὸ μέγιστον πέλαγος μέσον, ὅμως γε νεῖ οὐδὲν ἧττον.
πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
οὐκοῦν καὶ ἡμῖν νευστέον καὶ πειρατέον σῴζεσθαι ἐκ τοῦ λόγου, ἤτοι δελφῖνά τινα ἐλπίζοντας ἡμᾶς ὑπολαβεῖν ἂν ἤ τινα ἄλλην ἄπορον σωτηρίαν. 453e
ἔοικεν, ἔφη.
φέρε δή, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐάν πῃ εὕρωμεν τὴν ἔξοδον. ὁμολογοῦμεν γὰρ δὴ ἄλλην φύσιν ἄλλο δεῖν ἐπιτηδεύειν, γυναικὸς δὲ καὶ ἀνδρὸς ἄλλην εἶναι· τὰς δὲ ἄλλας φύσεις τὰ αὐτά φαμεν νῦν δεῖν ἐπιτηδεῦσαι. ταῦτα ἡμῶν κατηγορεῖται;
κομιδῇ γε.

Republic. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1905.

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Current edition Perseus

Πολιτεία (Greek) (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.)

Translations (1)

Republic Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).) — 5.453 focus

[453]
Then is not the first thing that we have to agree upon with regard to these proposals whether they are possible or not? And we must throw open the debate¹ to anyone who wishes either in jest or earnest to raise the question 453a whether female human nature is capable of sharing with the male all tasks or none at all, or some but not others,² and under which of these heads this business of war falls. Would not this be that best beginning which would naturally and proverbially lead to the best end³? Far the best, he said. Shall we then conduct the debate with ourselves in behalf of those others⁴ so that the case of the other side may not be taken defenceless and go by default⁵? 453b Nothing hinders, he said. Shall we say then in their behalf: There is no need, Socrates and Glaucon, of others disputing against you, for you yourselves at the beginning of the foundation of your city agreed⁶ that each one ought to mind as his own business the one thing for which he was fitted by nature? We did so agree, I think; certainly! Can it be denied then that there is by nature a great difference between men and women? Surely there is. Is it not fitting, then, that a different function should be appointed 453c for each corresponding to this difference of nature? Certainly. How, then, can you deny that you are mistaken and in contradiction with yourselves when you turn around and affirm that the men and the women ought to do the same thing, though their natures are so far apart? Can you surprise me with an answer to that question? Not easily on this sudden challenge, he replied: but I will and do beg you to lend your voice to the plea in our behalf, whatever it may be. These and many similar difficulties, Glaucon, said I, 453d I foresaw and feared, and so shrank from touching on the law concerning the getting and breeding of women and children. It does not seem an easy thing, by heaven, he said, no, by heaven. No, it is not, said I; but the fact is that whether one tumbles into a little diving-pool or plump into the great sea he swims all the same. By all means. Then we, too, must swim and try to escape out of the sea⁷ of argument in the hope that either some dolphin⁸ will take us on its back or some other desperate rescue. 453e So it seems, he said. Come then, consider, said I, if we can find a way out. We did agree that different natures should have differing pursuits and that the nature of men and women differ. And yet now we affirm that these differing natures should have the same pursuits. That is the indictment. It is.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

καὶ κάλλιστα . Dobree conjectured κάλλιστα καί, neatly, but needlessly, for καλὴ τελευτή, like καλὴ ἀρχή, may be treated as a single notion. Cf. III 404 B note

κατοικίσεως : sc. τῆς πόλεως, but the antecedent is attracted into the relative clause ( ἣν ᾠκίζετε πόλιν), as often: cf. I 350 C note

ὡμολογεῖτε . II 369 E ff.

οὐ γὰρ εὐκόλῳ κτλ. The MS reading has been defended in two ways. Schneider prints a colon after ἔφη, and explains οὐ μὰ τὸν Δία as “minime, per Jovem, ”; but it is exceedingly difficult to supply the words in brackets. This difficulty induced Apelt ( Obs. Crit. p. 12) to suggest οὐ <μάτην> μὰ τὸν Δία, ἔφη· οὐ γὰρ κτλ. Others explain the oath as emphasizing οὐ γὰρ εὐκόλῳ ἔοικεν, and compare X 605 E οὐ μὰ τὸν Δἴ, ἔφη, οὐκ εὐλόγῳ ἔοικεν and Parm. 131 E οὐ μὰ τὸν Δία, φάναι, οὔ μοι δοκεῖ εὔκολον εἶναι τὸ τοιοῦτον διορίσασθαι. But the whole difficulty centres round γάρ, and γάρ is absent from each of these passages. Hartman strangely explains γάρ as ‘profecto’; while Stallbaum inclines to cut it out. Groen van Prinsterer ( Prosop. Plat. p. 209) proposed to read οὐ γὰρ εὐκόλῳ ἔοικεν. Οὐ μὰ τὸν Δία, ἔφη. Οὐ γάρ, εἶπον. It appears to me that the emphatic οὐ μὰ τὸν Δία is more appropriate in the mouth of Socrates, who is continually dwelling on the difficulty of his task, and I therefore think that Plato wrote Οὐ γὰρ εὐκόλῳ ἔοικεν, ἔφη. Οὐ γάρ, εἶπον, οὐ μὰ τὸν Δία, although I have not ventured to change the text. εὐκόλῳ is of course neuter, not masculine, as Richter supposed ( Fl. Jahrb. 1867 p. 143).

κολυμβήθραν : a swimming tank. See Blümner Privatalt. p. 210 note 2. In what follows we have the first suggestion of the wave metaphor, which dominates nearly the whole of Book V: see on 449 A.

ἄπορον . As ἄλλην here means ‘other’ and not ‘else,’ the epithet ἄπορον (‘difficult to procure,’ cf. II 378 A) must be applicable to the dolphin also. The Platonic litotes seems delicately to suggest that the miraculous story of Arion and the dolphin is not above suspicion. Herwerden conjectured ἄτοπον, but no change is necessary.

κατηγορεῖτε . Socrates identifies his audience with the imaginary opponents of 453 A—C, and Glauco replies in their name. As ἡμῶν means primarily Socrates and Glauco (453 B), the situation is somewhat confusing: and some may wish to read κατηγορεῖται, as I formerly printed (with Vind. F, Flor. R T, Ficinus and Hartman). The confusion of ε and αι is of course common (see Introd. § 5), but it is better to adhere to the best MSS. Cf. VI 489 B.

Plato Republic 5.453

ed. John Burnet

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