Plato, Republic, ed. John Burnet, 3.403

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[403] 403a
οὐδαμῶς.
τί δέ; ὕβρει τε καὶ ἀκολασίᾳ;
πάντων μάλιστα.
μείζω δέ τινα καὶ ὀξυτέραν ἔχεις εἰπεῖν ἡδονὴν τῆς περὶ τὰ ἀφροδίσια;
οὐκ ἔχω, ἦ δʼ ὅς, οὐδέ γε μανικωτέραν.
ὁ δὲ ὀρθὸς ἔρως πέφυκε κοσμίου τε καὶ καλοῦ σωφρόνως τε καὶ μουσικῶς ἐρᾶν;
καὶ μάλα, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
οὐδὲν ἄρα προσοιστέον μανικὸν οὐδὲ συγγενὲς ἀκολασίας τῷ ὀρθῷ ἔρωτι;
οὐ προσοιστέον. 403b
οὐ προσοιστέον ἄρα αὕτη ἡ ἡδονή, οὐδὲ κοινωνητέον αὐτῆς ἐραστῇ τε καὶ παιδικοῖς ὀρθῶς ἐρῶσί τε καὶ ἐρωμένοις;
οὐ μέντοι μὰ Δίʼ, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες, προσοιστέον.
οὕτω δή, ὡς ἔοικε, νομοθετήσεις ἐν τῇ οἰκιζομένῃ πόλει φιλεῖν μὲν καὶ συνεῖναι καὶ ἅπτεσθαι ὥσπερ ὑέος παιδικῶν ἐραστήν, τῶν καλῶν χάριν, ἐὰν πείθῃ, τὰ δʼ ἄλλα οὕτως ὁμιλεῖν πρὸς ὅν τις σπουδάζοι, ὅπως μηδέποτε δόξει μακρότερα 403c τούτων συγγίγνεσθαι· εἰ δὲ μή, ψόγον ἀμουσίας καὶ ἀπειροκαλίας ὑφέξοντα.
οὕτως, ἔφη.
ἆρʼ οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ σοὶ φαίνεται τέλος ἡμῖν ἔχειν ὁ περὶ μουσικῆς λόγος; οἷ γοῦν δεῖ τελευτᾶν, τετελεύτηκεν· δεῖ δέ που τελευτᾶν τὰ μουσικὰ εἰς τὰ τοῦ καλοῦ ἐρωτικά.
σύμφημι, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
μετὰ δὴ μουσικὴν γυμναστικῇ θρεπτέοι οἱ νεανίαι.
τί μήν;
δεῖ μὲν δὴ καὶ ταύτῃ ἀκριβῶς τρέφεσθαι ἐκ παίδων διὰ 403d βίου. ἔχει δέ πως, ὡς ἐγᾦμαι, ὧδε· σκόπει δὲ καὶ σύ. ἐμοὶ μὲν γὰρ οὐ φαίνεται, ὃ ἂν χρηστὸν ᾖ σῶμα, τοῦτο τῇ αὑτοῦ ἀρετῇ ψυχὴν ἀγαθὴν ποιεῖν, ἀλλὰ τοὐναντίον ψυχὴ ἀγαθὴ τῇ αὑτῆς ἀρετῇ σῶμα παρέχειν ὡς οἷόν τε βέλτιστον· σοὶ δὲ πῶς φαίνεται;
καὶ ἐμοί, ἔφη, οὕτως.
οὐκοῦν εἰ τὴν διάνοιαν ἱκανῶς θεραπεύσαντες παραδοῖμεν αὐτῇ τὰ περὶ τὸ σῶμα ἀκριβολογεῖσθαι, ἡμεῖς δὲ ὅσον τοὺς 403e τύπους ὑφηγησαίμεθα, ἵνα μὴ μακρολογῶμεν, ὀρθῶς ἂν ποιοῖμεν;
πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
μέθης μὲν δὴ εἴπομεν ὅτι ἀφεκτέον αὐτοῖς· παντὶ γάρ που μᾶλλον ἐγχωρεῖ ἢ φύλακι μεθυσθέντι μὴ εἰδέναι ὅπου γῆς ἐστιν.
γελοῖον γάρ, ἦ δʼ ὅς, τόν γε φύλακα φύλακος δεῖσθαι.
τί δὲ δὴ σίτων πέρι; ἀθληταὶ μὲν γὰρ οἱ ἄνδρες τοῦ μεγίστου ἀγῶνος. ἢ οὐχί;
ναί.

Republic. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1905.

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Current edition Perseus

Πολιτεία (Greek) (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.)

Translations (1)

Republic Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).) — 3.403 focus

[403] By no means. But is there between pleasure and insolence and licence? Most assuredly. Do you know of greater or keener pleasure than that associated with Aphrodite? I don’t, he said, nor yet of any more insane. But is not the right love a sober and harmonious love of the orderly and the beautiful? It is indeed, said he. Then nothing of madness, nothing akin to licence, must be allowed to come nigh the right love? No. Then this kind of pleasure 403b may not come nigh, nor may lover and beloved who rightly love and are loved have anything to do with it? No, by heaven, Socrates, he said, it must not come nigh them. Thus, then, as it seems, you will lay down the law in the city that we are founding, that the lover may kiss¹ and pass the time with and touch the beloved as a father would a son, for honorable ends, if he persuade him. But otherwise he must so associate with the objects of his care that there should never be any suspicion of anything further, 403c on penalty of being stigmatized for want of taste and true musical culture. Even so, he said. Do you not agree, then, that our discourse on music has come to an end? It has certainly made a fitting end, for surely the end and consummation of culture be love of the beautiful. I concur, he said.
After music our youth are to be educated by gymnastics? Certainly. In this too they must be carefully trained 403d from boyhood through life, and the way of it is this, I believe; but consider it yourself too. For I, for my part, do not believe that a sound body by its excellence makes the soul good, but on the contrary that a good soul by its virtue renders the body the best that is possible.² What is your opinion? I think so too. Then if we should sufficiently train the mind and turn over to it the minutiae of the care of the body, 403e and content ourselves with merely indicating the norms or patterns, not to make a long story of it, we should acting rightly? By all means. From intoxication³ we said that they must abstain. For a guardian is surely the last person in the world to whom it is allowable to get drunk and not know where on earth he is. Yes, he said, it would absurd that a guardian⁴ should need a guard. What next about their food? These men are athletes in the greatest of contests,⁵ are they not? Yes.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

οὐ προσοιστέον ἄρα . This somewhat extreme example of a common liberty in concord serves to increase the rhetorical emphasis by the energetic repetition of Glauco's ipsissima verba. The emphasis becomes still greater in Glauco's reply οὐ μέντοι, μὰ Δία, προσοιστεόν. The particle μέντοι is especially used in replies when the words of a previous speaker are repeated (Hoefer de part. Plat. p. 32). q and Flor. U have προσοιστέα.

φιλεῖν is ‘kiss’ (as Schneider rightly translates the word): cf. V 468 B and Arist. Pol. B 4. 1262^{a} 32 ff., where χρήσεις (as Hicks observes) means ‘endearments.’

ἅπτεσθαι κτλ. We think of Socrates and the ‘disciple whom he loved’ in the Phaedo: εἰώθει γάρ, ὁπότε τύχοι, παίζειν μου εἰς τὰς τρίχας (89 B).

ὥσπερ ὑέος . Herwerden's conjecture ὡς πατὴρ ὑέος (or ὥσπερ πατὴρ ὑέος) deserves the praise of ingenuity, but Plato's text is better and more expressive, because it represents the object of affection almost as the lover's very son. It should be noted that in Plato's ἔρως it is the elder who loves, and the younger who is loved; and that the aim and purpose of Platonic love is τόκος ἐν καλῷ ( Symp. 206 B )—the bringing to birth of noble thoughts and aspirations from the beautiful soul of youth. Socrates was the embodiment of Plato's ideal in this respect ( Symp. 216 D ff.). Some true and excellent observations on the subject will be found in Dugas L'Amitié Antique pp. 50—53 al.

τῶν καλῶν χάριν . Plato is resolved that Love, as well as Art, shall serve Virtue and not Vice.

τὰ δ) ἄλλα ‐‐ ξυγγίγνεσθαι . σπουδάζειν πρός τινα occurs with the same sense in Gorg. 510 C . Madvig's περὶ ὧν for πρὸς ὅν would give quite a wrong meaning. σπουδάζει has been suggested for σπουδάζοι (Ast, Richards, Hartman), but the optative puts the case more generally: any one in whom one may be interested. Cf. Soph. Ant. 666 ἀλλ’ ὃν πόλις στήσειε, τοῦδε χρὴ κλύειν, with Jebb's note. The previous sentence has told us what the actual relations of the pair of friends must be; and Plato now forbids all conduct likely in any way to occasion scandal or misapprehension: hence δόξει (‘be supposed to’). Such conduct is in bad taste ( ψόγον ἀμουσίας), rather than positively αἰσχρόν or immoral, like actual vice. μαργότερα τούτῳ (Herwerden) instead of μακρότερα τούτων is a singularly gross conjecture.

ὑφέξοντα . “Si ὑφέξοντα non sanum, corrige ὑφέξειν” (Hartman). This catches the point, but, as Hartman admits, the text can be defended as it stands. The participle agrees with the subject of ὁμιλεῖν, εἰ δὲ μή being all but adverbial, and therefore not followed by a main clause. Cf. Prot. 311 D .

δεῖ δέ που κτλ. The love of Beauty is φιλοσοφία ( Symp. 204 B ); so that the famous saying of the Phaedo (61 A) φιλοσοφία μεγίστη μουσική resembles this. I agree with Krohn ( Pl. St. p. 71) in holding that τοῦ καλοῦ is still beauty as it is revealed in Nature and in Art (see on 402 C), the πολὺ πέλαγος τοῦ καλοῦ of Symp. 210 D , and not yet the transcendent Idea of the Beautiful, the contemplation of which demands a still higher flight (ib. 210 D—212 A). But Plato leaves his μουσικός already knocking at the gates ‘of the blest promised Land.’

γυμναστικῇ κτλ. Plato's statements on γυμναστική have been carefully collected and expounded by Kanter Platos Anschauungen über Gymnastik, Graudenz 1886. Admirable remarks on the whole subject will be found in Nettleship Hell. pp. 132—134: cf. also his Lectures and Remains II pp. 123—126. Plato deals here chiefly with the hygienic aspect of gymnastic—a subject which was much discussed in his day: see Dict. Ant. I p. 929, where we are reminded that gymnasia were dedicated to Apollo, father of Asclepius, and himself a god of healing. In his interesting treatise Die Platonischen Dialoge in ihrem Verhältnisse zu den Hippokratischen Schriften (Landshut 1882) Poschenrieder has shewn that Plato was strongly influenced throughout this passage by the views of Hippocrates and his school. See also Häser Lehrb. d. Gesch. d. Med. etc. I pp. 94 ff. The athletics of Gymnastic are treated of in Laws 795 D ff., 833 ff.

ψυχὴ ἀγαθὴ ‐‐ βέλτιστον . No very recondite theory of the relation of body and soul is here involved. Plato simply means that the soul has more power over the body than the body over the soul. (The restriction in ὡς οἷόν τε should be noted.) On this principle some doctors held that to cure the body one should minister to the mind diseased: see the curious passage in Charm. 156 B —157 C. The general sentiment is well illustrated by J. and C. from Democr. Fr. Mor. 128 (Müllach) ἀνθρώποισι ἁρμόδιον ψυχῆς μᾶλλον ἢ σώματος ποιέεσθαι λόγον· ψυχὴ μὲν γὰρ τελεωτάτη σκήνεος μοχθηρίην ὀρθοῖ, σκήνεος δὲ ἰσχὺς ἄνευ λογισμοῦ ψυχὴν οὐδέν τι ἀμείνω ποιεῖ.

εἴπομεν . 398 E.

ἀθληταὶ ‐‐ ἀγῶνος . Cf. Laws 829 E ἀθλητὰς τῶν μεγίστων ἀγώνων, and Lach. 182 A .

τῶνδε means contemporary athletes: cf. IV 425 C note With Plato's strictures on Greek athletics cf. Arist. Pol. Θ. 4. 1338^{b} 10 (with Susemihl and Hicks' note) and especially Eur. Fr. 284 : for his attack on the diet and training of athletes cf. Dict. Ant. I pp. 98, 928 and the authorities there cited.

Plato Republic 3.403

ed. John Burnet

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