Plato, Republic, ed. John Burnet, 3.404

Search the Perseus Catalog for:

← Previous Next →

[404] 404a
ἆρʼ οὖν ἡ τῶνδε τῶν ἀσκητῶν ἕξις προσήκουσʼ ἂν εἴη τούτοις;
ἴσως.
ἀλλʼ, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὑπνώδης αὕτη γέ τις καὶ σφαλερὰ πρὸς ὑγίειαν. ἢ οὐχ ὁρᾷς ὅτι καθεύδουσί τε τὸν βίον καί, ἐὰν σμικρὰ ἐκβῶσιν τῆς τεταγμένης διαίτης, μεγάλα καὶ σφόδρα νοσοῦσιν οὗτοι οἱ ἀσκηταί;
ὁρῶ.
κομψοτέρας δή τινος, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἀσκήσεως δεῖ τοῖς πολεμικοῖς ἀθληταῖς, οὕς γε ὥσπερ κύνας ἀγρύπνους τε ἀνάγκη εἶναι καὶ ὅτι μάλιστα ὀξὺ ὁρᾶν καὶ ἀκούειν καὶ πολλὰς μεταβολὰς ἐν ταῖς στρατείαις μεταβάλλοντας ὑδάτων 404b τε καὶ τῶν ἄλλων σίτων καὶ εἱλήσεων καὶ χειμώνων μὴ ἀκροσφαλεῖς εἶναι πρὸς ὑγίειαν.
φαίνεταί μοι.
ἆρʼ οὖν ἡ βελτίστη γυμναστικὴ ἀδελφή τις ἂν εἴη τῆς ἁπλῆς μουσικῆς ἣν ὀλίγον πρότερον διῇμεν;
πῶς λέγεις;
ἁπλῆ που καὶ ἐπιεικὴς γυμναστική, καὶ μάλιστα ἡ τῶν περὶ τὸν πόλεμον.
πῇ δή;
καὶ παρʼ Ὁμήρου, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τά γε τοιαῦτα μάθοι ἄν τις. οἶσθα γὰρ ὅτι ἐπὶ στρατιᾶς ἐν ταῖς τῶν ἡρώων ἑστιάσεσιν οὔτε ἰχθύσιν αὐτοὺς ἑστιᾷ, καὶ ταῦτα ἐπὶ 404c θαλάττῃ ἐν Ἑλλησπόντῳ ὄντας, οὔτε ἑφθοῖς κρέασιν ἀλλὰ μόνον ὀπτοῖς, ἃ δὴ μάλιστʼ ἂν εἴη στρατιώταις εὔπορα· πανταχοῦ γὰρ ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν αὐτῷ τῷ πυρὶ χρῆσθαι εὐπορώτερον ἢ ἀγγεῖα συμπεριφέρειν.
καὶ μάλα.
οὐδὲ μὴν ἡδυσμάτων, ὡς ἐγᾦμαι, Ὅμηρος πώποτε ἐμνήσθη. ἢ τοῦτο μὲν καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι ἀσκηταὶ ἴσασιν, ὅτι τῷ μέλλοντι σώματι εὖ ἕξειν ἀφεκτέον τῶν τοιούτων ἁπάντων;
καὶ ὀρθῶς γε, ἔφη, ἴσασί τε καὶ ἀπέχονται. 404d
Συρακοσίαν δέ, ὦ φίλε, τράπεζαν καὶ Σικελικὴν ποικιλίαν ὄψου, ὡς ἔοικας, οὐκ αἰνεῖς, εἴπερ σοι ταῦτα δοκεῖ ὀρθῶς ἔχειν.
οὔ μοι δοκῶ.
ψέγεις ἄρα καὶ Κορινθίαν κόρην φίλην εἶναι ἀνδράσιν μέλλουσιν εὖ σώματος ἕξειν.
παντάπασι μὲν οὖν.
οὐκοῦν καὶ Ἀττικῶν πεμμάτων τὰς δοκούσας εἶναι εὐπαθείας;
ἀνάγκη.
ὅλην γὰρ οἶμαι τὴν τοιαύτην σίτησιν καὶ δίαιταν τῇ μελοποιίᾳ τε καὶ ᾠδῇ τῇ ἐν τῷ παναρμονίῳ καὶ ἐν πᾶσι 404e ῥυθμοῖς πεποιημένῃ ἀπεικάζοντες ὀρθῶς ἂν ἀπεικάζοιμεν.
πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
οὐκοῦν ἐκεῖ μὲν ἀκολασίαν ἡ ποικιλία ἐνέτικτεν, ἐνταῦθα δὲ νόσον, ἡ δὲ ἁπλότης κατὰ μὲν μουσικὴν ἐν ψυχαῖς σωφροσύνην, κατὰ δὲ γυμναστικὴν ἐν σώμασιν ὑγίειαν;
ἀληθέστατα, ἔφη.

Republic. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1905.

Sponsored by Perseus Project, Tufts University.

Funding provided by The Annenberg CPB/Project.

Current edition Perseus

Πολιτεία (Greek) (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.)

Translations (1)

Republic Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).) — 3.404 focus

[404] Is, then, the bodily habit of the athletes we see about us suitable for such? 404a Perhaps. Nay, said I, that is a drowsy habit and precarious for health. Don’t you observe that they sleep away their lives,¹ and that if they depart ever so little from their prescribed regimen these athletes are liable to great and violent diseases? I do. Then, said I, we need some more ingenious form of training for our athletes of war, since these must be as it were sleepless hounds, and have the keenest possible perceptions of sight and hearing, and in their campaigns undergo many changes² 404b in their drinking water, their food, and in exposure to the heat of the sun and to storms,³ without disturbance of their health. I think so. Would not, then, the best gymnastics be akin to the music that we were just now describing? What do you mean? It would be a simple and flexible⁴ gymnastic, and especially so in the training for war. In what way? One could learn that, said I, even from Homer.⁵ For you are aware that in the banqueting of the heroes on campaign he does not 404c feast them on fish,⁶ nor on boiled meat, but only on roast, which is what soldiers could most easily procure. For everywhere, one may say, it is of easier provision to use the bare fire than to convey pots and pans⁷ along. Indeed it is. Neither, as I believe, does Homer ever make mention of sweet meats. Is not that something which all men in training understand—that if one is to keep his body in good condition he must abstain from such things altogether? They are right, 404d he said, in that they know it and do abstain. Then, my friend, if you think this is the right way, you apparently do not approve of a Syracusan table⁸ and Sicilian variety of made dishes. I think not. You would frown, then, on a little Corinthian maid as the chère amie of men who were to keep themselves fit? Most certainly. And also on the seeming delights of Attic pastry? Inevitably. In general, I take it, if we likened that kind of food and regimen to music and song expressed in the pan-harmonic mode and 404e in every variety of rhythm it would be a fair comparison. Quite so. And here variety engendered licentiousness, did it not, but here disease? While simplicity in music begets sobriety in the souls, and in gymnastic training it begets health in bodies. Most true, he said.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

ἐὰν σμικρὰ ἐκβῶσιν κτλ. Poschenrieder (l.c.) cites the Hippocratean Praedictiones II c. 1 Littré τοὺς ἀθλητὰς γινώσκειν...ἤν τι τοῦ σιτίου ἀπολίπωσιν, ἢ ἑτεροῖόν τι φάγωσιν, ἢ ποτῷ πλέονι χρήσωνται, ἢ τοῦ περιπάτου ἀπολίπωσιν ἢ ἀφροδισίων τι πράξωσι· τούτων πάντων οὐδὲν λανθάνει, οὐδ’ εἰ σμικρόν τι εἴη ἀπειθήσας ὥνθρωπος.

ὥσπερ κύνας . II 375 A.

πολλὰς μεταβολὰς κτλ. Cf. [Hippocr.] de umoribus V p. 496 C. 15 Littré αἱ μεταβολαὶ μάλιστα τίκτουσι νοσηματα καὶ αι μέγισται μάλιστα καὶ ἐν τῇσιν ὥρῃσιν αἱ μεγάλαι μεταλλαγαὶ καὶ ἐν τοῖσι ἄλλοισιν: cf. also Aphorism. IV p. 486 § 1 al. and Pl. Laws 797 D ff. (Poschenrieder l.c. pp. 31 ff.)

ἁπλῆ ‐‐ πόλεμον . The sentence is usually explained by carrying on ἡ βελτίστη γυμναστικὴ ἂν εἴη and regarding ἁπλῆ—γυμναστική as the predicate both to ἡ βελτίστη γυμναστική and to ἡ τῶν περὶ τὸν πόλεμον. Besides its extreme cumbrousness, this view makes Plato say that the best gymnastic is good ( ἐπιεικής is practically synonymous with ἀγαθή), which is, to say the least, unnecessary. It seems to me much simpler and better to make ἐπιεικὴς γυμναστική the subject to ἁπλῆ. The meaning is: will the best course of training be sister to the music we described? How so? ἐπιεικὴς γυμναστική, like ἐπιεικὴς μουσική (this is the force of καί), is ( ἐστὶ understood) ἁπλῆ, and so above all is that of soldiers. Hartman, who saw that the passage must be taken in this way, would write ἡ for καί, and I once preferred καὶ <ἡ>, but the article can be dispensed with (cf. 401 D note), and καί is necessary. As the emphasis is primarily on γυμναστική, some may prefer to read γυμναστικὴ ἐπιεικής or γυμναστικὴ ἡ ἐπίεικής; but if the stress of the voice is laid on γυμναστική, and ἐπιεικὴς γυμναστική treated as a single expression (cf. V 453 A note), I think the text may stand.

οὔτε ἰχθύσιν κτλ. Cf. Eubulus ap. Athen. I 25 C (Jackson).

ἐν Ἑλλησπόντῳ is rejected by Cobet and Hartman; if the Homeric heroes were ἐν Ἑλλησπόντῳ, the fish forsooth would more easily have eaten them than they the fish! This is however so obvious that even Cobet's “scriba sciolus” would have seen it, and avoided the preposition ἐν. The fact is that Ἑλλήσποντος was constantly used to denote the whole coast stretching from the Pontus to the Aegean, including Bosporos and Propontis. See Stein on Hdt. IV 38 and cf. Thuc. II 9. The usage is also found in Inscriptions (Meisterhans^{3} p. 226. 16). An Athenian of Plato's day was much more likely to employ the name Ἑλλήσποντος in this idiomatic sense than a later copyist; and for this reason I have no doubt that the expression is genuine, although the words of Hartman “nihil refert utrum ἐν Ἑλλησπόντῳ an ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ sint” are nearly, if not quite, true. Plato may however intend to remind us that fish were plentiful in the region of the Hellespont: cf. Il. IX 360 and Athen. IV 157 B.

ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν . I 341 B note

καὶ ὀρθῶς γε ‐‐ ἀπέχονται . ὀρθῶς must be taken with both verbs: ‘Yes, and they do well in knowing it and in abstaining.’

Συρακοσίαν ‐‐ ὄψου . For δέ (‘autem’) Stallbaum unnecessarily reads δή. The Συρακοσία τράπεζα was proverbial: see Blaydes on Ar. Fr. 206 and the curious account of Syracusan gluttony in Pl. Epp. VII 326 B ff. There is no sufficient basis for Cobet's idea that Plato is here borrowing from some comic poet. Later scandal insinuated that it was the delights of Syracusan living that drew Plato thrice to Sicily (Hermann Gesch. u. System p. 116 note 133, where the authorities are cited).

Κορινθίαν κόρην . Cf. 11 373 A note Κορινθία κόρη is a grisette: see the commentators on Ar. Plut. 149 , and on the general subject Blümner Privatalt. pp. 254—256. φίλην is more refined for ‘mistress’ ( ἑταῖρα). The word κόρην has been doubted: “innocentem puellam eicere ex Platonis republica voluerunt triumviri praestantissimi Buttmannus, Morgensternius, et nuperrime Astius.” So says Stallbaum, her successful champion.

Ἀττικῶν πεμμάτων . The fame of Athenian pastry was as great as its variety: see Athen. XIV cc. 51—58 and other references in Blümner l.c. p. 220.

παναρμονίῳ . See on 399 C.

Plato Republic 3.404

ed. John Burnet

Search the Perseus Catalog for:

Current edition Perseus

Commentary

Stable identifiers