Homer Iliad 11.780

A. T. Murray (Translator)

Iliad. Homer. A. T. Murray (Translator). London. 1924-1925.

Sponsored by Perseus Project, Tufts University.

Funding provided by The Annenberg CPB/Project.

Current edition Perseus

Iliad (English) (Homer. The Iliad, Volume 1-2. Murray, A. T. (Augustus Taber), translator. London: William Heinmann; New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1924-1925.)

Editions (1)
Ἰλιάς Perseus (Homer. Homeri Opera, Volumes 1-2. Monro, D. B. (David Binning), editor; Allen, Thomas W. (Thomas William), editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1908-1920.) — 11.780 focus
αὐτὰρ ἐπεὶ τάρπημεν ἐδητύος ἠδὲ ποτῆτος,
780
ἦρχον ἐγὼ μύθοιο κελεύων ὔμμʼ ἅμʼ ἕπεσθαι·
σφὼ δὲ μάλʼ ἠθέλετον, τὼ δʼ ἄμφω πόλλʼ ἐπέτελλον.
Πηλεὺς μὲν ᾧ παιδὶ γέρων ἐπέτελλʼ Ἀχιλῆϊ
αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν καὶ ὑπείροχον ἔμμεναι ἄλλων·
σοὶ δʼ αὖθʼ ὧδʼ ἐπέτελλε Μενοίτιος Ἄκτορος υἱός·
785
τέκνον ἐμὸν γενεῇ μὲν ὑπέρτερός ἐστιν Ἀχιλλεύς,
πρεσβύτερος δὲ σύ ἐσσι· βίῃ δʼ ὅ γε πολλὸν ἀμείνων.
ἀλλʼ εὖ οἱ φάσθαι πυκινὸν ἔπος ἠδʼ ὑποθέσθαι
καί οἱ σημαίνειν· ὃ δὲ πείσεται εἰς ἀγαθόν περ.
ὣς ἐπέτελλʼ ὃ γέρων, σὺ δὲ λήθεαι· ἀλλʼ ἔτι καὶ νῦν
790
ταῦτʼ εἴποις Ἀχιλῆϊ δαΐφρονι αἴ κε πίθηται.
τίς δʼ οἶδʼ εἴ κέν οἱ σὺν δαίμονι θυμὸν ὀρίναις
παρειπών; ἀγαθὴ δὲ παραίφασίς ἐστιν ἑταίρου.
εἰ δέ τινα φρεσὶν ᾗσι θεοπροπίην ἀλεείνει
καί τινά οἱ πὰρ Ζηνὸς ἐπέφραδε πότνια μήτηρ,
795
ἀλλὰ σέ περ προέτω, ἅμα δʼ ἄλλος λαὸς ἑπέσθω
Μυρμιδόνων, αἴ κέν τι φόως Δαναοῖσι γένηαι·
καί τοι τεύχεα καλὰ δότω πόλεμον δὲ φέρεσθαι,
αἴ κέ σε τῷ εἴσκοντες ἀπόσχωνται πολέμοιο
Τρῶες, ἀναπνεύσωσι δʼ ἀρήϊοι υἷες Ἀχαιῶν
800
τειρόμενοι· ὀλίγη δέ τʼ ἀνάπνευσις πολέμοιο.
ῥεῖα δέ κʼ ἀκμῆτες κεκμηότας ἄνδρας ἀϋτῇ
ὤσαισθε προτὶ ἄστυ νεῶν ἄπο καὶ κλισιάων.
Translations (8)
Iliad Perseus (Homer. The Iliad of Homer, rendered into English prose for the use of those who cannot read the original. Butler, Samuel, 1835-1902, translator. London: Longmans, Green, and Co, 1898.) — 11.823 focus
English (Butler, rev. Nagy et al., 2020) (OCR draft) Experimental (English (Butler, rev. Nagy et al., 2020)) — 11.780 focus
When we had satisfied ourselves with meat and drink, [780] I said my say and urged both of you to join us. You were ready enough to do so, and the two old men charged you much and strongly. Old Peleus bade his son Achilles fight ever among the foremost and outcompete his peers, while Menoitios, the son of Aktor, spoke thus to you: [785] ‘My son,’ said he, ‘Achilles is of nobler birth than you are. 787 You are older; but he is much better in force [ bíē]. Counsel him wisely, guide him in the right way, and he will follow you to his own profit.’ Thus did your father charge you, but you have forgotten; nevertheless, even [790] now, say all this to high-spirited Achilles if he will listen to you. Who knows but with the help of a superhuman force [ daimōn] you may talk him over, for it is good to take a friend’s advice. If, however, he is fearful about some oracle, or if his mother has told him something from Zeus, [795] then let him send you, and let the rest of the Myrmidons follow with you, if perchance you may bring light and saving to the Danaans. And let him send you into battle clad in his own armor, that the Trojans may mistake you for him and leave off fighting; the sons of the Achaeans may thus have time to get their breath, [800] for they are hard pressed and there is little breathing time in battle. You, who are fresh, might easily drive a tired enemy back to his walls and away from the tents and ships.”
English (William Cullen Bryant, 1870) (OCR draft) Experimental (English (William Cullen Bryant, 1870)) — 11.780 focus
Then, having feasted, I began discourse,
Exhorting you to join us. Both of you
At once consented, and your fathers gave
Their admonitions. Aged Peleus charged
955
His son Achilles to excel the rest
In valor, while Menœtius, in his turn,
The son of Actor, gave thee this command: -
"'My son, Achilles is the nobler born,
But thou art elder. He surpasses thee
960
By far in warlike might, but thou must prompt
His mind with prudent counsels; thou must warn
And guide him; he will hearken to thy words
Meant for his good.' The old man charged thee thus.
Thou hast forgotten it. Yet speak thou now
965
To Peleus' warlike son; and haply he
May heed thy counsels. Thou perchance may'st bend
His will-who knows? - by thy persuasive words;
For wholesome are the warnings of a friend.
Yet, if he shrink from some predicted doom,
970
Or if his goddess-mother have revealed
Aught of Jove's counsels to him, then, at least
Let him send thee to war, and let his troop
Of Myrmidons go with thee, so that thou
May'st carry succor to the Greeks. Yet more, —
975
Let him permit thee in the field to wear
His glorious armor, that the Trojan host,
Beholding thee so like to him, may shun
The combat, and the warlike sons of Greece,
Hard-pressed, may breathe again, and find at length
980
A respite from the conflict. Ye, who still
Are fresh and vigorous, shall assault and drive
Townward the weary foe from camp and fleet."
He spake. The spirit of the youth took fire,
And instantly he hastened toward the ships
985
Of Peleus' son. But when he came where lay
The galleys of Ulysses the divine,
Where was the assembly-place and judgment-seat,
And where the altars of the immortals stood,
Evæmon's noble son, Eurypylus,
990
Met him as from the battle-field he came
Halting, and with an arrow in his thigh.
The sweat ran down his shoulders and his brow,
And the black blood was oozing from his wound,
Yet was his spirit untamed. The gallant youth,
995
Son of Menœtius, saw with grief, and said: -
"Unhappy chiefs and princes of the Greeks!
Are ye then doomed to feast with your fair limbs
The famished dogs of Ilium, far away
From friends and country? Tell me, child of Jove,
1000
Gallant Eurypylus, will yet the Greeks
Withstand the mighty Hector, or give way
And perish, overtaken by his spear?"
English (Alexander Pope, 1720, ed. Watson, 1857) (OCR draft) Experimental (English (Alexander Pope, 1720, ed. Watson, 1857)) — 11.780 focus
'Social we sit, and share the genial rites.
'We then explain'd the cause on which we came,
'Urg'd you to arms, and found you fierce for fame.
'Your ancient fathers generous precepts gave:
'Peleus said only this: "My son! be brave,"
915
'Menoetius thus: "Though great Achilles shine
'"In strength superior, and of race divine,
'"Yet cooler thoughts thy elder years attend;
'"Let thy just counsels aid, and rule thy friend."'
'Thus spoke your father at Thessalia's court;
920
'Words now forgot, though now of vast import.
'Ah! try the utmost that a friend can say,
'Such gentle force the fiercest minds obey;
'Some favouring god Achilles' heart may move;
'Though deaf to glory, he may yield to love.
925
'If some dire oracle his breast alarm,
'If aught from heaven withhold his saving arm;
'Some beam of comfort yet on Greece may shine,
'If thou but lead the Myrmidonian line;
'Clad in Achilles' arms, if thou appear,
930
'Proud Troy may tremble, and desist from war!
'Press'd by fresh forces, her o'erlabour'd train
'Shall seek their walls, and Greece respire again.'
English (Thomas Hobbes, 1667, ed. Molesworth 1843) (OCR draft) Experimental (English (Thomas Hobbes, 1667, ed. Molesworth 1843)) — 11.780 focus
English (George Chapman, 1611, ed. Hooper 1857) (OCR draft) Experimental (English (George Chapman, 1611, ed. Hooper 1857)) — 11.780 focus
English (William Cowper, 1791, ed. Southey) (OCR draft) Experimental (English (William Cowper, 1791, ed. Southey)) — 11.780 focus
English (F. W. Newman, 1856) (OCR draft) Experimental (English (F. W. Newman, 1856)) — 11 focus

New Alexandria Commentaries

Douglas Frame

example of the contrast between Achilles’ bíē and the greater age and superior counsel of Patroclus. Compare to Il. XIX.216

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analysis of Patroclus and Achilles, and Nestor’s advice to Patroclus, in terms of the twin myth (Patroclus either to bring Achilles back to fighting/back to life, or to take his place)

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analysis of Patroclus and Achilles, and Nestor’s advice to Patroclus, in terms of the twin myth (Patroclus either to bring Achilles back to fighting/back to life, or to take his place)

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analysis of the parallels and contrasts between Nestor and Patroclus (and the twin myth)

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analysis of Patroclus and Achilles, and Nestor’s advice to Patroclus, in terms of the twin myth (Patroclus either to bring Achilles back to fighting/back to life, or to take his place)

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example of laos as referring to one’s own in contexts where there is a contrast between “leader(s)” and those who “follow”

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in the context of analyzing the parallels and contrast between Nestor and Patroclus (and the twin myth)

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analysis of the (parallels and) contrasts between Nestor and Patroclus (and the twin myth)

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analysis of the (parallels and) contrasts between Nestor and Patroclus (and the twin myth), here, Patroclus’ pity

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Gregory Nagy

Rhapsody 11 marks the point in the Iliad where Patroklos is drawn into a fatal pattern of impersonating Achilles. Pivotal is the story that Patroklos hears from the old hero Nestor. My comments here on Iliad 11 work around Nestor’s story at I.11.670–803 as analyzed in the book Hippota Nestor by Douglas Frame, 2009:105–130.

draft js image errorNestor and his sons sacrifice to Poseidon. Attic red-figure calyx-krater, ca. 400–380 BCE. © Marie-Lan Nguyen / Wikimedia Commons, via Wikimedia Commons.

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To ‘strive to be the best always’, that was the instruction of Peleus to his son Achilles, and this instruction is relevant to the title ‘best of the Achaeans’ as claimed by the figure of Achilles.

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Conventionally, the heroic superiority of Achilles is measured in terms of his biē ‘force, violence, strength’. See the comment on I.09.346–352.

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Here as well as earlier at I.08.220–227 and at I.11.005–016, also later at I.14.027–036, the headquarters of the Achaeans are said to be located at the same place where the ship of Odysseus is beached, on the shores of the south end of the bay of the Hellespont. It is here, next to the beached ship of Odysseus, that the Achaeans of the Iliad hold their assemblies and perform their sacrifices, as we see from the wording at I.11.807–808. Such a centerpoint, then, is not only topographical: it is also political—even sacral. And it is from here that the king Agamemnon shouts his speech of royal authority, as we saw at I.08.220–227. Likewise, it is from here that the goddess Eris ‘Strife’, who is the spirit of war personified, shouts at the Achaeans with her voice of divine authority at I.11.005–014, echoed by Agamemnon’s voice of royal authority at I.11.015–016. The location of this political and sacral centerpoint is the naustathmon ‘ship-station’ of the Achaeans according to Strabo 13.1.31–32 C595 (quoted at HPC 153) and 13.1.36 C598 (quoted at HPC 154), who equates such a station with something called the limēn ‘harbor’of the Achaeans’. But such a notion of ‘harbor’ is misleading from the standpoint of the Iliad. As noted in the comment on I.08.220–227, the ships of the Achaeans were not floating at anchor in the bay of the Hellespont: rather, they were beached along the shores of the bay.

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For Patroklos to picture here the devouring of heroes’ corpses by dogs is to show the intensity of his anxious feelings about the future.

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Richard Martin

The advice that Patroklos is to deliver to Achilles is designated a pukinon epos: "tell him well a pukinon epos and instruct and give him directions" (11.788-89). This kind of discourse is language one can personally "keep"—or fail to keep, as is the case when Patroklos forgets Achilles' personal warning (16.686-87): "If he had guarded the epos of the son of Peleus, he would have fled the evil fate of black death." (Martin 1993:35).

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Even in his long reminiscence during his final muthos of command, Nestor depicts himself as an authority (11.781-90). He frames the speech to Patroklos on the basis of his own biography, and within the speech alludes to a previous rhetorical success—the original recruitment of Patroklos and Achilles for the war. Although Odysseus was also present in Phthia that day, it was Nestor (so he says) who "began the muthos" (11.781). The formulaic variation here, to the rarer use of the singular of the word for speech, might imply that Nestor's performance did not face any counter-speeches. Nestor selects the one detail from the alleged "instructions" of Peleus that contrasts most with his own recapitulation of advice by Patroklos' father, suggesting that the companion of Achilles should instruct and guide him (11.786-90). The older man uses his muthos to praise Patroklos, thereby constructing an image of the role he is supposed to play. As with Zeus' speeches to Hera and Thetis in Book 24, Homer has supplied enough detail to make an audience appreciate the possibilities for fictional presentation within authoritative speechmaking (Martin 1993:61-62).

For the broader analysis of Nestor as master of the memory genre, see the comment on Iliad 1.259-274.

References

Martin, R. P. 1993. The Language of Heroes: Speech and Performance in the Iliad. Ithaca.

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