Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Adolf Wahrmund (Translator), 5.89

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Athener: „Gut! Und so wollen?denn auch wir nicht
mit schönen,Worten eine lange.Rede halten,.die euch doch nicht
überzeugen würde, wie z. B., daß wir die Herrschaft mit Recht besitzen,
weil'wirken,Meder unschädlich gemacht haben, oder daß wir
erlittenes,Unrechts wegen.euch zu Leibe gehen; dafür erwarten wir aber,
daß auch ihr euch nicht der Täuschung ,hingebet,- uns mit solchen
Dingen überreden zu können,- wie wennuhr vorbringt,.daß ihr ja Mit den ¹²
Lakedämoniern nicht zu Felde gezogen seiet, obgleich ihr von ihnen
abstammt, oder daß ihr uns ja Nichts zu Leide, gethan hättet. Sucht
vielmehr nur das durchzusetzen, was nach Maßgabe von unser beider
wirklichen Gesinnungen möglich ist. Ihr so gut wie wir wisset, daß
nach menschlicher Denkart die Gerechtigkeit nur da in Betracht
gezogen wird, wo auf beiden Seiten die Zwangsmittel sich die Wage
halten; der Mächtige aber setzt durch, was durchzusetzen möglich ist,
und der Schwache fügt sich."

History of the Peloponnesian War. Thucydides. Adolf Wahrmund (Translator). Stuttgart. 1864.

Current edition First1KGreek

Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs (German) (Thucydides. Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs. Wahrmund, Adolf, translator. Stuttgart: Krais and Hoffmann, 1864.)

Editions (1)

Ἱστορίαι Perseus (Thucydides. Historiae, Vol 1-2. Jones, Henry Stuart, editor. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1910. (1942 printing).) — 5.89.1 focus

ΑΘ.

ἡμεῖς τοίνυν οὔτε αὐτοὶ μετ’ ὀνομάτων καλῶν, ὡς ἢ δικαίως τὸν Μῆδον καταλύσαντες ἄρχομεν ἢ ἀδικούμενοι νῦν ἐπεξερχόμεθα, λόγων μῆκος ἄπιστον παρέξομεν, οὔθ’ ὑμᾶς ἀξιοῦμεν ἢ ὅτι Λακεδαιμονίων ἄποικοι ὄντες οὐ ξυνεστρατεύσατε ἢ ὡς ἡμᾶς οὐδὲν ἠδικήκατε λέγοντας οἴεσθαι πείσειν, τὰ δυνατὰ δ’ ἐξ ὧν ἑκάτεροι ἀληθῶς φρονοῦμεν διαπράσσεσθαι, ἐπισταμένους πρὸς εἰδότας ὅτι δίκαια μὲν ἐν τῷ ἀνθρωπείῳ λόγῳ ἀπὸ τῆς ἴσης ἀνάγκης κρίνεται, δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν.

Translations (9)

The History of the Grecian War Perseus (Thucydides. The English works of Thomas Hobbes of Malmesbury. Hobbes, Thomas. translator. London: John Bohn, 1843.) — 5.89.1 focus

[1] Ath. As we therefore will not, for our parts, with fair pretences, as, that having defeated the Medes, our reign is therefore lawful, or that we come against you for injury done, make a long discourse without being believed; so would we have you also not expect to prevail by saying either that you therefore took not our parts because you were a colony of the Lacedaemonians or that you have done us no injury. But out of those things which we both of us do really think, let us go through with that which is feasible, both you and we knowing that in human disputation justice is then only agreed on when the necessity is equal; whereas they that have odds of power exact as much as they can, and the weak yield to such conditions as they can get.

History of the Peloponnesian War Perseus (Thucydides. History of the Peloponnesian War. Crawley, Richard, translator. London and Toronto: J. M. Dent and Sons Ltd.; New York: E. P. Dutton and Co., 1914.) — 5.89.1 focus

‘For ourselves, we shall not trouble you with specious pretences—either of how we have a right to our empire because we overthrew the Mede , or are now attacking you because of wrong that you have done us—and make a long speech which would not be believed; and in return we hope that you, instead of thinking to influence us by saying that you did not join the Lacedaemonians, although their colonists, or that you have done us no wrong, will aim at what is feasible, holding in view the real sentiments of us both; since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.’

Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs First1KGreek (Thucydides. Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs. Braun, Theodor, translator. Leipzig: Insel-Verlag, 1917.) — 5.89 focus

Athener: „Nun denn; wir werden euch keine lange wohl
gesetzte, ja doch nur Mißtrauen erweckende Rede darüber
halten, daß wir durch unseren Sieg über den Perserkönig das
Recht zur Herrschaft erworben haben, oder daß wir euch ins
Land gekommen sind, weil ihr uns was zuleide getan. Wir
verlangen jedoch, daß ihr nicht glaubt, mit der Ausrede durch
zukommen, als lakedämonische Kolonisten hättet ihr uns die
Heerfolge versagt und uns nichts zuleide getan, aber auch,
daß ihr nichts nach unserer beiderseitigen wahren Meinung
Unmögliches begehrt. Bildet euch also nicht ein, wir wüßten
nicht, daß es unter den Menschen nur bei gleichen Macht-
mitteln nach Recht geht, der Mächtige aber tut, was ihm an
steht, und der Schwache sich fügen muß."

Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponèse First1KGreek (Thucydides. Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése, Vol. 1-2. Zévort, Marie Charles, translator. Paris: Charpentier, 1852.) — 5.89 focus

LXXXIX. L es A théniens. Nous laisserons donc de côté, pour notre compte, les belles paroles; nous ne vous prouverons pas, par de longs discours qui ne con- vaincraient personne, que, vainqueurs des Mèdes, l’empire nous est justement acquis, ou que c’est pour venger de justes griefs que nous vous attaquons aujourd’hui; mais, par contre, nous ne voulons pas que vous vous figuriez nous convaincre en prétextant que c’est comme colons de Lacédémone que vous avez refusé de marcher avec nous, ou bien encore que vous ne nous avez fait aucun tort. Il faut s’en tenir à poursuivre ce qui est possible, étant donné pour base un principe sur lequel nous pensons de même, et n’avons rien à nous apprendre mutuellement : c’est que, dans les affaires humaines, on se soumet aux règles delà justice quand on y est contraint par une mutuelle nécessité, mais que, pour les forts, le pouvoir est la seule règle, et pour les faibles la soumission.

Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése First1KGreek (Thucydides. Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése. Bétant, Élie-Ami, translator. Paris: Librairie de L. Hachette, 1863.) — 5.89 focus

Les Athéniens. Nous n’irons point chercher de belles phrases; et nous n’entreprendrons pas de démontrer, par de longs discours qui ne convaincraient personne, que notre domination se justifie par nos triomphes sur les Mèdes, et notre agression actuelle par vos torts envers nous. Mais de votre côté, ne venez pas non plus nous dire que c’est en qualité de colons de Lacédémone que vous avez refusé de vous joindre à nous, et quà cet égard vous êtes sans reproche. Il faut se tenir dans les limites du possible, et partir d’un principe universellement admis : c’est que, dans les affaires humaines, on se règle sur la justice quand de part et d’autre on en sent la nécessité, mais que les forts exercent leur puissance et que les faibles la subissent.

History of the Peloponnesian War First1KGreek (Thucydides, Vol. 1-4. Smith, Charles Foster, translator. London and Cambridge, MA: Heinemann and Harvard University Press, 1919-1923.) — 5.89.1 focus

[1] ATH. “Well, then, we on our part will make use of no fair phrases, saying either that we hold sway justly because we overthrew the Persians,¹ or that we now come against you because we are injured, offering in a lengthy speech arguments that would not be believed; nor, on the other hand, do we presume that you will assert, either that the reason why you did not join us in the war was because you were colonists of the Lacedaemonians, or that you have done us no wrong. Rather we presume that you aim at accomplishing what is possible in accordance with the real thoughts of both of us, since you know as well as we know that what is just is arrived at in human arguments only when the necessity on both sides is equal, and that the powerful exact what they can, while the weak yield what they must.”

History of the Peloponnesian War First1KGreek (Thucydides. The history of the Peloponnesian War, Volume 1-2. Dale, Henry, translator. London: Heinemann and Henry G. Bohn, 1851-1852.) — 5.89.1 focus

[1] Ath.

We then shall not ourselves advance fair pretences, either of our justly enjoying empire in consequence of having overthrown the Mede, or of now coming against you because we are being injured-and so make a long speech which would not be believed; nor do we wish you to think of persuading us by saying, either that you did not join the standard of the Lacedaemonians, though you were their colony; or that you have done us no wrong. But we advise you, according to the real sentiments of us both, to think of getting what you can; since you know, and are speaking to those who know, that, in the language of men, what is estimated by equality of power compel; but what is possible is that which the stronger practise, and to which the weak submit.

Historia Belli Peloponnesiaci First1KGreek (Historia Belli Peloponnesiaci. Haase, Friedrich, translator. Paris: Firmin Didot, 1869.) — 5.89.1 focus

[1] Ath. Nos igitur neque ipsi speciosis nominibus utentes longam et parum plausibilem orationem afferemus ut probemus vel imperium jure a nobis obtineri, quod Medum debellarimus, vel quod injuriis affecti eas nunc ulciscamur, neque censemus propterea quod Lacedaemoniorum coloni quum sitis, tamen non et ipsi bellum adversus nos gesseritis, neque injuriam ullam nobis feceritis, existimandum vobis esse fore ut nobis persuadeatis, sed potius ea vobis agenda esse, quae possunt fieri pro iis, qu» utri, que revera in animo habemus, qua in re et nos scimus et vos intelligere debetis, justa quidem quae sint, In humana ratione per parem necessitatem aestimari, ea vero, quae lieri possint, potentiores facere et infirmiores concedere.

La storia di Tucidide First1KGreek (Thucydides. Della storia di Tucidide volgarizzata libri otto. Anonymous translator. Florence: Tipografia Galileiana, 1835.) — 5.89 focus

Aten. « Noi pertanto non produrremo lunga diceria , alla quale non aggiustereste fede , per mostrarvi cou speciosi nomi che giustamente abbiamo impero perchè distruggitori del Medo, o che cerchiamo vendetta perchè ingiuriati. Nè vi crediamo tali da pensare che colle vostre parole ci persuaderete, di non aver unite con noi le armi vostre per esser colouia de’Lacedemoni ; ovvero di non averci ingiuriati : ma vogliamo che da entrambi si esiga quel che più si può, secondo la vera opinione che abbiamo delle forze nostre; sapendo bene, come voi il sapete, che nelle contese umane si giudica a termini di giustizia quando le forze coattive sono eguali ; laddove i più forti fanno tutto quello che possono, e i deboli menan buono ogni cosa ».

Notes on the current edition

History of the Peloponnesian War

1. Th'ukydili' V.

2. 416 v.
Chr.

Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War 5.89

Adolf Wahrmund (Translator)

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