Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Adolf Wahrmund (Translator), 5.85

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„Obgleich wir schon nicht vor dem ganzen Volke reden
dürfen, — natürlich damit die Menge nicht in einer
zusammenhängenden Auseinandersetzung VerlockendeS und Unwiderlegliches auf
einmal zu hören bekomme und dadurch von unS hinter's Licht geführt
werde, — denn wir sehen recht gut, daß unsere Vorladung vor die
Minderzahl der Reichen und Mächtigen eben daraus hinausläuft —,
so habt ihr, die ihr dahier versammelt seid, euch noch weiter sicher
gestellt. Denn auch ihr wollt nicht in zusammenhängender Rede,
sondern aus jeden einzelnen Punkt, wenn er euch unrichtig gefaßt
scheint, sogleich einfallend eure Entscheidung abgeben.So sagt ¹
denn zuerst; ob ihr an dem, was wir da sagen, etwas auszusetzen >
habt."

- Darauf gab die Versammlung der melischen Bevollmächtigten
zur Antwort:

History of the Peloponnesian War. Thucydides. Adolf Wahrmund (Translator). Stuttgart. 1864.

Current edition First1KGreek

Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs (German) (Thucydides. Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs. Wahrmund, Adolf, translator. Stuttgart: Krais and Hoffmann, 1864.)

Editions (1)

Ἱστορίαι Perseus (Thucydides. Historiae, Vol 1-2. Jones, Henry Stuart, editor. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1910. (1942 printing).) — 5.85.1 focus

[1] οἱ δὲ τῶν Ἀθηναίων πρέσβεις ἔλεγον τοιάδε. ‘ἐπειδὴ οὐ πρὸς τὸ πλῆθος οἱ λόγοι γίγνονται, ὅπως δὴ μὴ ξυνεχεῖ ῥήσει οἱ πολλοὶ ἐπαγωγὰ καὶ ἀνέλεγκτα ἐσάπαξ ἀκούσαντες ἡμῶν ἀπατηθῶσιν (γιγνώσκομεν γὰρ ὅτι τοῦτο φρονεῖ ἡμῶν ἡ ἐς τοὺς ὀλίγους ἀγωγή), ὑμεῖς οἱ καθήμενοι ἔτι ἀσφαλέστερον ποιήσατε. καθ’ ἕκαστον γὰρ καὶ μηδ’ ὑμεῖς ἑνὶ λόγῳ, ἀλλὰ πρὸς τὸ μὴ δοκοῦν ἐπιτηδείως λέγεσθαι εὐθὺς ὑπολαμβάνοντες κρίνετε. καὶ πρῶτον εἰ ἀρέσκει ὡς λέγομεν εἴπατε.’

Translations (9)

The History of the Grecian War Perseus (Thucydides. The English works of Thomas Hobbes of Malmesbury. Hobbes, Thomas. translator. London: John Bohn, 1843.) — 5.85.1 focus

[1] Athenians. Since we may not speak to the multitude, for fear lest when they hear our persuasive and unanswerable arguments all at once in a continued oration, they should chance to be seduced (for we know that this is the scope of your bringing us to audience before the few), make surer yet that point, you that sit here; answer you also to every particular, not in a set speech, but presently interrupting us whensoever anything shall be said by us which shall seem unto you to be otherwise. And first answer us whether you like this motion or not?

History of the Peloponnesian War Perseus (Thucydides. History of the Peloponnesian War. Crawley, Richard, translator. London and Toronto: J. M. Dent and Sons Ltd.; New York: E. P. Dutton and Co., 1914.) — 5.85.1 focus

‘Since the negotiations are not to go on before the people, in order that we may not be able to speak straight on without interruption, and deceive the ears of the multitude by seductive arguments which would pass without refutation (for we know that this is the meaning of our being brought before the few), what if you who sit there were to pursue a method more cautious still! Make no set speech yourselves, but take us up at whatever you do not like, and settle that before going any farther. And first tell us if this proposition of ours suits you.’

Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs First1KGreek (Thucydides. Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs. Braun, Theodor, translator. Leipzig: Insel-Verlag, 1917.) — 5.85 focus

Athener: „Vor dem Volke laßt ihr uns ja nicht zu Worte
kommen, aus Furcht, eure Leute könnten von uns verführt
werden, wenn wir Gelegenheit hätten, ihnen unsere einleuchten
den, unwiderleglichen Gründe in einer zusammenhängenden
Rede zu entwickeln; merken wir doch recht gut, daß ihr uns
nur deshalb in diesen engeren Kreis geführt habt. Davor
seid ihr hier in der Sitzung allerdings sicher. Denn hier läuft
eS nicht auf eine einmalige Rede hinaus, sondern ihr könnt
uns gleich bei jedem einzelnen Punkte, bei dem ihr anderer
Meinung seid, ins Wort fallen und uns widerlegen. Zunächst
also, seid ihr damit einverstanden?"

Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponèse First1KGreek (Thucydides. Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése, Vol. 1-2. Zévort, Marie Charles, translator. Paris: Charpentier, 1852.) — 5.85 focus

LXXXV. Les Athéniens. « Si l’on nous interdit de parler devant le peuple, c’est sans doute de peur que l’attrait d’un discours suivi, prononcé sans interruption, sans le contre-poids d’aucune réfutation, ne séduise la multitude. — Car nous sentons bien que c’est dans cette crainte que vous ne nous admettez à parler que devant les principaux citoyens. — Mais alors, vous ¹ qui siégez ici, prenez encore mieux vos sûretés : au lieu de nous faire vous-mêmes une réponse unique, prenez chaque point isolément, réfutez sur-le-champ tout cé qui dans nos observations ne vous paraîtra pas fondé, et décidez ensuite. Et d’abord, dîtes-nous si cette proposition vous convient. » Le conseil des Méliens répondit :

Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése First1KGreek (Thucydides. Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése. Bétant, Élie-Ami, translator. Paris: Librairie de L. Hachette, 1863.) — 5.85 focus

Les Athéniens. Puisqu’on ne nous permet pas de nous faire entendre de la multitude, mais qu’on nous introduit seulement auprès d’un petit nombre d’auditeurs, de peur sans doute qu’un discours soutenu, persuasif et sans réplique immédiate n’induise votre peuple en erreur, vous qui siégez ici, procédez plus sûrement encore. Laissez là les discours suivis, et examinez les questions au fur et à mesure qu’elles vous seront soumises. Quand nous aurons énoncé une opinion, si elle vous paraît inadmissible, réfutez-la sur-le-champ; et, pour commencer, dites si cette proposition vous agrée.

History of the Peloponnesian War First1KGreek (Thucydides, Vol. 1-4. Smith, Charles Foster, translator. London and Cambridge, MA: Heinemann and Harvard University Press, 1919-1923.) — 5.85.1 focus

[1] “Since our proposals are not to be made before the assembly, your purpose being, as it seems, that the people may not hear from us once for all, in an uninterrupted speech, arguments that are seductive and untested,¹ and so be deceived—for we see that it is with this thought that you bring us before the few—do you who sit here adopt a still safer course. Take up each point, and do not you either make a single speech, but conduct the inquiry by replying at once to any statement of ours that seems to be unsatisfactory. And first state whether our proposal suits you.”

History of the Peloponnesian War First1KGreek (Thucydides. The history of the Peloponnesian War, Volume 1-2. Dale, Henry, translator. London: Heinemann and Henry G. Bohn, 1851-1852.) — 5.85.1 focus

[1] Ath.

Since our words are not to be addressed to your populace, in order that the many may not be deceived, forsooth, by hearing at once in one continuous oration persuasive and irrefutable arguments, (for we know that this is the meaning of your introducing us to the few,) do ye who are seated here in congress pursue a still more cautious method. For do not ye, either, make one continuous speech on the several topics, but immediately taking us up at whatever does not appear to be advanced in accordance with your interest, decide that question. And first tell us if you are pleased with what we propose.

The commissioners of the Melians made this reply:

Historia Belli Peloponnesiaci First1KGreek (Historia Belli Peloponnesiaci. Haase, Friedrich, translator. Paris: Firmin Didot, 1869.) — 5.85.1 focus

[1] « Quoniam non apud populum verba a nobis fiunt, ne multitudo, si nos perpetua oratione utamur, et verba ad animos alliciendos apia, et quae a nullo refelli queant, faciamus, nobis semel auditis decipiatur (intelligi-mus enim nos ad paucos eo consilio nunc a vobis adductos esse), vos igitur, qui estis in isto consessu, tutius etiam agite. Singulatim enim et ne vos quidem perpetua oratione utentes, sed ut quidque non commode a nobis dici ridebitur, continuo respondeutes judicate. Ac primum quidem declarate, placeat ne facere, ut dicimus. »

La storia di Tucidide First1KGreek (Thucydides. Della storia di Tucidide volgarizzata libri otto. Anonymous translator. Florence: Tipografia Galileiana, 1835.) — 5.85 focus

Ateniesi. « Siccome non si ha da favellare al popolo , acciò la moltitudine anche una sola volta sentendo certamente da noi in un continovato discorso ragioni attrattive e irrefragabili, non resti ingannata (che questo vostro conducimento innanzi a pochi veggiam bene tendere a ciò), voi medesimi che state a consesso assicurate anche meglio questo vostro proponimento. Non decidete neppur voi di ciascuna cosa che diremo per un solo discorso continovato , ma ripigliate subito la parola a ciò che non vi sembri detto convenientemente. E prima di tutto diteci se vi piace il modo che diciamo ». E gli assessori de’ Melii risposero :

Notes on the current edition

History of the Peloponnesian War

1. 4l6
v.
Chr.

Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War 5.85

Adolf Wahrmund (Translator)

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