Aristotle Poetics 18.10

Thomas Twining (Translator)

View: By Part
One Tragedy may justly be considered as the same with another, or different, not according as the subjects, but, rather, according as the complication and development, are the same or different.

Poetics. Aristotle. Thomas Twining (Translator). London, UK. 1789.

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Current edition Experimental

Poetics (Thomas Twining, 1789) (OCR draft) (English) (Thomas Twining's English translation of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1789 and aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.)

Provisional text from uncorrected OCR; expect errors.

Editions (4)
Περὶ ποιητικῆς (OCR draft) (Aristotle, Poetics. Immanuel Bekker, editor, Aristotelis Opera, volume 2. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1837.) — 18 focus
Περὶ ποιητικῆς (OCR draft) Perseus (Aristotle, De arte poetica liber. Rudolf Kassel, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1965. Reference edition for passage alignment.) — 18 focus
Poetics, Greek text (Ingram Bywater, 1909) (OCR draft) Experimental (Ingram Bywater's Greek text of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1909.) — 18 focus
Poetics, Greek text (Franz Ritter, 1839) (OCR draft) Experimental (Franz Ritter's 1839 Greek edition, corrected against OCR of the represented copy and aligned to the conventional Perseus chapter-and-subchapter sequence.) — 18 focus
Translations (13)
Poetics (W. H. Fyfe) (OCR draft) Perseus (William Hamilton Fyfe's English translation of Aristotle's Poetics, Loeb Classical Library, 1939 printing.) — 18 focus
Arabic Poetics (Badawī edition, 1953) (OCR draft) (The ancient Arabic translation of Aristotle's Poetics in ʿAbd al-Raḥmān Badawī's 1953 edition.) — 18 focus
Poetics (S. H. Butcher, 1911) (OCR draft) Experimental (S. H. Butcher's English translation from Aristotle's Theory of Poetry and Fine Art, fourth edition, 1911.) — 18 focus
Aristotle on the Art of Poetry (Ingram Bywater, 1909) (OCR draft) Experimental (Ingram Bywater's English translation of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1909.) — 18 focus
The Poetic of Aristotle (Henry James Pye, revised 1792) (OCR draft) Experimental (Henry James Pye's revised 1792 English translation, corrected against the 1788 first edition, aligned to the Kassel reference edition, and supplied with a selective apparatus of substantive 1788 readings.) — 18.10 focus
The difference or sameness of one tragedy and another, must not be estimated by the fable
The Poetic of Aristotle (Theodore Alois Buckley) (OCR draft) Experimental (Theodore Alois Buckley's English translation, first published in 1850 and represented from the Henry G. Bohn 1857 printing; corrected against a second OCR and aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 18.10 focus
as if some one should compose a tragedy from the whole fable of the Iliad. For in the Iliad, on account of its length, the parts receive an appropriate magnitude. But in dramas, the effect pro- duced would be very contrary to expectation. 1 The truth of this is indicated by such as have represented [in one tragedy] the whole destruction of Troy,
Poetica Latine conversa (Franciscus Ritter, 1839) (OCR draft) Experimental (Franz Ritter's Latin translation, corrected against OCR of the represented copy and aligned to the conventional Perseus chapter-and-subchapter sequence.) — 18 focus
La poëtique d'Aristote (André Dacier, 1692) (OCR draft) Experimental (André Dacier's French translation of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1692.) — 18.10 focus
Il me ſemble auſſi qu'il n'eſt pas juſte de prétendre qu'une piece eſt la même qu'une autre, ou qu'elle eſt differente, lorſque le ſujet eſt le même, ou qu'il eſt different. Il eſt à mon avis plus raiſonnable de dire cela des pieces qui ont le même nœud & le même denoüement, ou dont le nœud & le denoüement ſont tout autres.
Poetica d'Aristotile (Bernardo Segni, 1549) (OCR draft) Experimental (Bernardo Segni's 1549 Florentine Italian translation, aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 18 focus
De poetica (Antonio Riccobono, 1587) (OCR draft) Experimental (Antonio Riccobono's Latin translation, first published in 1587; text represented from Immanuel Bekker's 1831 edition.) — 18 focus
De arte poetica liber (William of Moerbeke, ca. 1277) (OCR draft) Experimental (William of Moerbeke's medieval Latin translation, represented by the 1953 Aristoteles Latinus edition.) — 18 focus
Arabic Poetics (Abū Bishr Mattā; Tkatsch edition) (OCR draft) Experimental (The Arabic translation attributed to Abū Bishr Mattā, edited by Jaroslaus Tkatsch in 1928 and aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 18 focus
Arabic Poetics (Abū Bishr Mattā; Tkatsch edition, unaligned) (OCR draft) Experimental (Tkatsch's edition of the medieval Arabic translation in its original, unaligned segmentation.) — 18 focus

Commentary

Commentary on the Poetics (Ingram Bywater, 1909) (OCR draft) (Ingram Bywater's English commentary on Aristotle's Poetics.) focus

10. mvp-aristotle-comment-662

δίκαιον κτέ. This and the next sentence ( πολλοί ... κρατεῖσθαι) are probably out of place (see above, on 18, 1455 b24 ).

10. mvp-aristotle-comment-663

ἄλλην καὶ τὴν αὐτὴν λέγειν. The point here, the conditions under which two tragedies may be said to be the same or not, is very like that in De anima2. 4, 416 a5
χρὴ τὰ ὄργανα λέγειν ἕτερα καὶ ταὐτὰ τοῖς ἔργοις
, and in Pol.3. 3, 1276 a18
πῶς ποτε χρὴ λέγειν τὴν πόλιν εἶναι τὴν αὐτὴν ἢ μὴ τὴν αὐτὴν ἀλλ᾽ ἑτέραν
.

10. mvp-aristotle-comment-664

οὐδενὶ ἴσως τῷ μύθῳ,
'ob nihil aeque ac ob fabulam'
( Tyrwhitt). The dative οὐδενὶ is to be taken with λέγειν in the sense of 'by reason of' or 'on account of'; comp. De anima2. 4, 416 a5 (quoted above). — De sensu7, 447 b24
φαίνεται γὰρ τὸ μὲν τῷ ἀριθμῷ ἐν ἡ ψυχὴ οὐδενὶ ἑτέρῳ λέγειν ἀλλ᾽ ἢ τῷ ἅμα
. — Eth. N.3. 12, 1117 b32
τῷ dὴ τὰ λυπηρὰ ὑπομένειν ἀνδρεῖοι λέγονται
. The construction in ἴσως τῷ μύθῳ ('equally with the story') is normal ( Kühner, Gr. Gr. 2. 1 p. 411 ); but I am not able to point out an exact parallel. It may be compared, however, with that in Eth. N.1. 4, 1096 a23
τἀγαθὸν ἰσαχῶς λέγεται τῷ ὄντι
, and in Plato Parm.150 e
ἐξ ἴσου τῷ ἑνὶ dι᾽ ὅλου αὐτοῦ τεταμένη;
and with the use of ὁμοίως in Pol.3. 11, 1282 b8
ὁμοίως ταῖς πολιτείαις ἀνάγκη καὶ τοὺς νόμους φαύλους ἢ σπουdaίους εἶναι
, and elsewhere. ἴσως has the sense of 'equally' in Pol.4. 14, 1298 b23 ( Bekker), in Plato Laws805 c , and in Demosth. 10. 74 (v. Weil ad loc.).

10. mvp-aristotle-comment-665

τοῦτο δέ (= τοῦτο δ᾽ ἐστί) introduces an explaining clause of similar form in De gen. et corr.1. 6, 323 a17
οὐ γὰρ οἷόν τε πᾶν τὸ κινοῦν ποιεῖν, εἴπερ τὸ ποιοῦν ἀντιθήσομεν τῷ πάσχοντι τοῦτο δ᾽ οἷς ἡ κίνησις πάθος
.

10. mvp-aristotle-comment-666

ἡ αὐτὴ. Aristotle, thinking only of the identity of the two tragedies, omits to recognize the possible alternative ἢ ἄλλη (comp. 19, 1456 b4 ).

Remarques sur la poëtique d'Aristote (André Dacier, 1692) (OCR draft) (André Dacier's French commentary on Aristotle's Poetics.) focus

14. mvp-aristotle-comment-439

18.10 14. Il me semble auſi qu'il n'est pas juste de prétendre qu'une piece eft la même qu'une autre, ou qu'elle est differente, lorſque le sujet est le même ou qu'il est different. Il est à mon avis plus raisonnable de dire cela des pieces qui ont le même nœud & le mème denoiement, où dont le nœud & le denoüement font tout autres.] 1

Commentary on the Poetics (Henry James Pye, 1792) (OCR draft) (Henry James Pye's 1792 English commentary, aligned to the Kassel reference edition.) focus

18.4. mvp-aristotle-comment-71 18.10

THE DIFFERENCE OR SAMENESS OF ONE TRAGEDY AND ANO- THER MUST NOT BE ESTIMATED BY THE FABLE, BUT BY THE PLOT AND SOLUTION.

THIS is illustrated by the observation in the last chapter as to the general formation of the fable, and subsequent application of names. The tragedies of the Regent and the Countess of Salisbury, as to the general plan, and the plot and solution are radically the fame, and both taken from the Odyssey. While the tragedy of Zenobia, written by Mr. Murphy, and Metastasio's opera of the same name, though both founded on the same historical event, related by Tacitus, from differing entirely as to the arrangement of the fable, and the plot and solution, are perfectly distinct dramas. A stronger instance yet may be drawn from Romeo and Juliet and Caius Marius, and the Sophonisba of Thomfon and Lee. Thus the poet has it in his power to transfer the same circumstances from a popular to an unpopular fubject. From whatever reason it arifes, the observation of Dr. Johnson that mythological fables do not fucceed on the English stage is founded on experience. The English like the Roman poets are fond of domestic story. • Vestigia
POETIC OF ARISTOTLE. Vestigia Græca ' Ausi deferere & celebrare domeftica facta [c].' On which lines there are some very judicious observations in Bishop Hurd's notes on the Epistle to the Pifos. I think the Odyssey as proper a fable for the drama as any I am acquainted with. But nothing would be so great an advantage as to follow the example of the [D] author of the Countess of Salisbury, and give the incidents an old English garb, which is so well fitted to them. How easily is the Trojan war changed to a crufade, Ulyffes made a feudal chief, ([E) which by the way he much more resembles than the pompous sovereign Pope has made him,) and concealed as a pilgrim instead of a beggar. [F] The happiest instance I know of a tranfition like this, is the Edward and Eleonora of Thomson, taken from the Alcestes of Euripides. [c] And boldly quitting Grecia's beaten ways, ' They twine for native chiefs, dramatic bays.' According to Le Pere Brumoy the French entirely differ from us in this respect. See DISCOURS SUR LE PARALLELE DES THEATRES. [D] I only speak as to the design; the execution of it is below mediocrity. Besides I believe the author never thought immediately of the Odyssey, but only copied it through the medium of the novel called Longsword, Earl of Salisbury. [E] See Note 1. Chap. xxiv. [F] This was attended with peculiar difficulty as the English poet was obliged to produce the solution by nature, which the Greek poet had effected by a machine. On this account an improbability is incurred in the English drama. We may allow Hercules, after the good office he has done, to play a little with the feelings of Admetus. But to suppose such characters as Selim, as Glocester, as Theald, and even as Eleonora herself, would keep Edward a moment

Commentarius in Aristotelis Poeticam (Franciscus Ritter, 1839) (OCR draft) (Ritter's Latin commentary, extracted from the 1839 volume, divided by Ritter's chapters and sections, and linked to the corresponding Perseus reference subsections.) focus

3. mvp-aristotle-comment-125

Ritter, cap. 18 § 3

μάλιστα μὲν οὖν ἅπαντα δεῖ πειρᾶσθαι ἔχειν, εἰ δὲ μή, τὰ μέγιστα καὶ πλεῖστα: divisionibus a se propositis duas adiungit admonitiones. earum prior spectat ad poetas tragoedias scripturos, altera lectoribus vel spectatoribus suadet, ut iuste leniterque de fabulis iudicare velint. itaque dum poetae commendat, ut is omnia habere (in tragoediis) conetur, sin minus, gravissima et plurima, ea admonitio ridicula est et inanis, ridicula propter nimiam benigni magistri facilitatem, inanis quod quae sint gravissima non explicatur. non minus mira, ne dicam inepta, est querela illa ἄλλως τε καὶ ὡς νῦν συκοφαντοῦσι τοὺς ποιητάς, quasi tu dicas, zumal auch wie man jetzt hinter den armen Dichtern her ist. sed haec prodere mihi videntur disciplinae Peripateticae alumnum quendam ad Academicos (illi Platonis exemplo poetas in multis saepiusque iniuste et speciosius quam verius reprehendebant) maligne et invidiose respicientem. δίκαιον δὲ καὶ κτλ. haec ad priorem illam divisionem, secundum quam tragoedia δέσει et λύσει continetur, spectant. moneo quam dure τοῦτο δὲ - καὶ λύσις inferantur. iustum sermonis vinculum deest: membra singula mire adnectuntur: δίκαιον δὲ τοῦτο δέ πολλοὶ δὲ δεῖ δὲ. quid denique volunt sibi δεῖ δὲ ἄμφω ἀεὶ κροτεῖσθαι? hoc, bonam implicationem bonamque solutionem laudandam esse ? immo verba hanc offerunt sententiam, bonam implicationem et malam solutionem semper laudibus prosequendam esse. num