Aristotle Poetics 7.11

ed. Henry James Pye

View: By Chapter
as far as regards the time of the performance and the spectators, it has no relation to the poetic art. If, indeed, an hundred tragedies were to be acted successively, they must be acted by the hourglass

Poetics. Aristotle. ed. Henry James Pye. London. 1792.

Current edition Experimental

The Poetic of Aristotle (Henry James Pye, revised 1792) (OCR draft) (English) (Henry James Pye's revised 1792 English translation, corrected against the 1788 first edition, aligned to the Kassel reference edition, and supplied with a selective apparatus of substantive 1788 readings.)

Provisional text from uncorrected OCR; expect errors.

Editions (4)
Περὶ ποιητικῆς (OCR draft) (Aristotle, Poetics. Immanuel Bekker, editor, Aristotelis Opera, volume 2. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1837.) — 7 focus
Περὶ ποιητικῆς (OCR draft) Perseus (Aristotle, De arte poetica liber. Rudolf Kassel, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1965. Reference edition for passage alignment.) — 7 focus
Poetics, Greek text (Ingram Bywater, 1909) (OCR draft) Experimental (Ingram Bywater's Greek text of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1909.) — 7 focus
Poetics, Greek text (Franz Ritter, 1839) (OCR draft) Experimental (Franz Ritter's 1839 Greek edition, corrected against OCR of the represented copy and aligned to the conventional Perseus chapter-and-subchapter sequence.) — 7 focus
Translations (13)
Poetics (W. H. Fyfe) (OCR draft) Perseus (William Hamilton Fyfe's English translation of Aristotle's Poetics, Loeb Classical Library, 1939 printing.) — 7 focus
Arabic Poetics (Badawī edition, 1953) (OCR draft) (The ancient Arabic translation of Aristotle's Poetics in ʿAbd al-Raḥmān Badawī's 1953 edition.) — 7 focus
Poetics (S. H. Butcher, 1911) (OCR draft) Experimental (S. H. Butcher's English translation from Aristotle's Theory of Poetry and Fine Art, fourth edition, 1911.) — 7 focus
Aristotle on the Art of Poetry (Ingram Bywater, 1909) (OCR draft) Experimental (Ingram Bywater's English translation of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1909.) — 7 focus
Poetics (Thomas Twining, 1789) (OCR draft) Experimental (Thomas Twining's English translation of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1789 and aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 7.11 focus
With respect to the measure of this length—if referred to actual representation in the dramatic contests, it is a matter foreign to the art itself: for if a hundred Tragedies were to be exhibited in concurrence, the length of each performance must be regulated by the hour glass; a practice of which, it is said, there have formerly been instances.
The Poetic of Aristotle (Theodore Alois Buckley) (OCR draft) Experimental (Theodore Alois Buckley's English translation, first published in 1850 and represented from the Henry G. Bohn 1857 printing; corrected against a second OCR and aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 7.11 focus
The definition, however, of the length 1 with reference to contests and the senses, does not fall under the consideration of art. For if it were requisite to perform a hundred tragedies, [as is said to have been the case more than once 3,] the performance ought to be regulated by a clepsydra. 2 But the definition [of the length of the fable] according to the nature of the thing, is this, that the fable is always more beautiful the greater it is, if at the same time it is perspicuous. Simply defining the thing, however, we may say, [that a fable has an appropriate magnitude,] when the time of its duration is such as to render it probable that there can be a transition from prosperous to adverse,
Poetica Latine conversa (Franciscus Ritter, 1839) (OCR draft) Experimental (Franz Ritter's Latin translation, corrected against OCR of the represented copy and aligned to the conventional Perseus chapter-and-subchapter sequence.) — 7 focus
La poëtique d'Aristote (André Dacier, 1692) (OCR draft) Experimental (André Dacier's French translation of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1692.) — 7.11 focus
Or la meſure préciſe de cette grandeur, pour ce qui regarde la durée de la repreſentation & de l'attention du ſpectateur, ne peut être décidée par des regles certaines & fixes, car s'il falloit joüer, par exemple, cent Tragedies dans un jour, il faudroit meſurer le temps de chacune à la Clepſydre, comme on dit que cela ſe pratiquoit autrefois.
Poetica d'Aristotile (Bernardo Segni, 1549) (OCR draft) Experimental (Bernardo Segni's 1549 Florentine Italian translation, aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 7 focus
De poetica (Antonio Riccobono, 1587) (OCR draft) Experimental (Antonio Riccobono's Latin translation, first published in 1587; text represented from Immanuel Bekker's 1831 edition.) — 7 focus
De arte poetica liber (William of Moerbeke, ca. 1277) (OCR draft) Experimental (William of Moerbeke's medieval Latin translation, represented by the 1953 Aristoteles Latinus edition.) — 7 focus
Arabic Poetics (Abū Bishr Mattā; Tkatsch edition) (OCR draft) Experimental (The Arabic translation attributed to Abū Bishr Mattā, edited by Jaroslaus Tkatsch in 1928 and aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 7 focus
Arabic Poetics (Abū Bishr Mattā; Tkatsch edition, unaligned) (OCR draft) Experimental (Tkatsch's edition of the medieval Arabic translation in its original, unaligned segmentation.) — 7 focus

Commentary

Commentary on the Poetics (Ingram Bywater, 1909) (OCR draft) (Ingram Bywater's English commentary on Aristotle's Poetics.) focus

11. mvp-aristotle-comment-314

ὅρος ὁ μὲν πρὸς τοὺς ἀγῶνας the limit in practice, in contradistinction to the theoretic limit of length, ὁ κατ᾿ αὐτὴν τὴν φύσιν τοῦ πράγματος ὅρος (a 9) . In actual practice the length of the play is determined by the conditions of the public performances ( ἀγῶνες) in which it will be presented on the stage; the time it is to occupy there is fixed by custom and convention rather than theory.

11. mvp-aristotle-comment-315

1451a7 τὴν αἴσθησιν scil. ">τῶν θεατῶν (see on 15, 1454 b 15 ); comp. 4, 1449 a 8
πρὸς τὰ θέατρα
.
The language here, though quite general, seems to refer more especially to the power of attention in the audiences.

11. mvp-aristotle-comment-316

1451a8 ἑκατὸν τραγῳδίας ἀγωνίζεσθαι an extreme instance like the μυρίων σταδίων ζῷον in a 2. The subject of ἀγωνίζεσθαι, if expressed, would be 'the performers', ἀγωνίζεσθαί τι in stage matters being synonymous with ὑποκρίνεσθαί τι; comp. Demosth. 19, 246
τοῦτο δὲ τὸ δρᾶμα Μόλων ἠγωνίζετο
. — 250
ἃ ἡγωνίσω καὶ ἀκριβῶς ἐξηπίστασο
. — 337
τὰ Θυέστου... ἠγωνίζετο
(see on 6, 1450 b 18 ).
In the sense of 'contend', as said of the dramatic poet, it would require an instrumental dative ( τραγῳδίαις) after it. The personification implied in Tyrwhitt's rendering, 'si centum tragoedias in theatro certare oporteret', is (I think) questionable in Aristotle. Goulston takes ἀγωνίζεσθαι as a passive (= agi) as it certainly sometimes is.

11. mvp-aristotle-comment-317

πρὸς κλεψύδρας For the preposition comp. fr. 468 Teubn.
μέτρον τί ἐστιν ὕδατος πρὸς μεμετρημένον ἡμέρας διάστημα ῥέον ... πρὸς δὴ τοῦτο ἠγωνίζοντο οἱ μέγιστοι καὶ περὶ τῶν μεγίστων ἀγῶνες
.

11. mvp-aristotle-comment-318

1451a8-9 ὥσπερ ποτὲ καὶ ἄλλοτέ †φασιν† The idea of tragedies having been at some date or other timed by the clepsydra is to my mind highly improbable, and there is no hint of such a thing elsewhere. The language also here is not free from difficulties. Tyrwhitt translates it by 'quemadmodum aliquando alias etiam factum esse perhibent'; and Vahlen (Berlin Academy, Sitzungsberichte 1897 p. 639) by 'wie man sagt, dass sie auch sonst gespielt haben'. To get this out of the words, and make them relate to Tragedy, or rather the past history of Tragedy, it becomes necessary to supply (with Vahlen) an aorist infinitive, ἀγωνίσασθαι, from the preceding imperfect ἠγωνίζοντο, and also to make ποτὲ καὶ ἄλλοτε mean simply 'once' or 'formerly', though its natural meaning would be 'at a certain other time'. Two instances have been pointed out of ποτὲ καὶ ἄλλοτε: Xenophon Anab. 6. 4. 12
ὑμᾶς δεῖ παρασκευάζεσθαι ὡς μαχουμένους εἴ ποτε καὶ ἄλλοτε
[= 'si unquam alias']; Lucian Hermot. 24
ἤδη γάρ ποτε καὶ ἄλλοτε
[= 'alias quondam']
πρεσβύτου ἀνδρὸς ἤκουσα διεξιόντος
.
These, however, are not enough to show that ποτὲ καὶ ἄλλοτε can only refer to an indefinite past or future; with a verb in the present it may very well refer to the indefinite present also, and have the sense of 'at certain other times', just in the same way as ποτέ, with a present, means 'at certain times' in Soph. el. 16, 175 a 27
συμβαίνει δέ ποτε καθάπερ ἐν τοῖς διαγράμμασιν
, and in the familiar antithesis of ποτέ and ἀεί.
M. Schmidt's correction, εἰώθασιν (for φασιν), though perhaps too bold, yields an unimpeachable sense, 'as is regularly done at certain other times', i. e. by another class of ἀγωνισταί, the pleaders in the law-courts. As a variation on it, to make the sense clearer, I would suggest ὥσπερ ποτὲ καὶ ἄλλοι εἰώθασιν.
1451a10

11. mvp-aristotle-comment-319

ὁ δὲ ... ὅρος is appositional to what follows.

Remarques sur la poëtique d'Aristote (André Dacier, 1692) (OCR draft) (André Dacier's French commentary on Aristotle's Poetics.) focus

14. mvp-aristotle-comment-216

7.11 14. Or la meſure préciſe de cette grandeur, pour ce qui regarde la durée de la repreſentation, & de l'attention du ſpectateur, ne peut être decidée par des regles certaines & fixes.] 1

15. mvp-aristotle-comment-217

7.11 15. Car s'il falloit joüer, par exemple, cent Tragedies dans un jour, il faudroit meſurer le temps de chacune à la Clepſydre.] 2

16. mvp-aristotle-comment-218

7.11 16. Comme on dit que cela ſe pratiquoit autrefois.] 3

Commentary on the Poetics (Thomas Twining, 1789) (OCR draft) (Thomas Twining's notes on Aristotle's Poetics, aligned to the Kassel reference edition.) focus

64. mvp-aristotle-comment-64

NOTE 64. P. 80.

7.11 IF A HUNDRED TRAGEDIES &C.
The supposition of a hundred Tragedies performed in concurrence seems merely to be a sort of hyperbolical fling at the known intemperance of the Athenian people with respect to theatrical exhibitions; and Dacier has rightly, I think, accounted for this
exuberantia orationis
, as Victorius calls it 1 . But Dacier, and the Abbé Batteux after him, make Aristotle's expression too hyperbolical for hyperbole itself, when they translate,
"S'il falloit jouer cent Tragedies en un jour."
For if the Tragedies were only half an hour long, and played without intermission, they would have required a day of fifty hours. We must understand, surely, with Beni,
"Si centum Tragœdiæ, verbi gratiâ, totis illis spectaculorum diebus recitandæ proponerentur;"
Comment. p. 211.
which will still leave hyperbole enough.
Dacier is also mistaken, I believe, in concluding, from what Aristotle says, that it was once an established custom with the Greeks to regulate the length of Tragedies by the clepsydra, or hour-glass. His expression seems to imply at least, that it had been rarely practised, if it does not, as M. Batteux thinks, imply some doubt, whether it had been done at all:—
ὥσπερ ποτε και άλλοτε ΦΑΣΙ
. Thus much, however, as to the limited length of these performances, we may easily conceive; that when, to gratify the immoderate fondness of the Athenians for the drama, an uncommon number of Tragedies were exhibited in concurrence, and the contending Poets were apt to encroach upon the patience of the audience, by lengthening out their pieces in order to shew off themselves, or their actors 2 , the Lord Chamberlain of these exhibitions might be obliged, in compliance with the clamours of the people, to confine the representation of each drama to some limited time.

Commentarius in Aristotelis Poeticam (Franciscus Ritter, 1839) (OCR draft) (Ritter's Latin commentary, extracted from the 1839 volume, divided by Ritter's chapters and sections, and linked to the corresponding Perseus reference subsections.) focus

6. mvp-aristotle-comment-58

Ritter, cap. 7 § 6

ὥσπερ ποτὲ καὶ ἄλλοτε φασίν: quid sibi velit hoc inane additamentum, nemo demonstrare potuit. si explicamus quomodo olim et alias factum esse dicunt, primum additur quod non inest in Graecis (factum esse), tum ἄλλοτε inepte post ποτέ et frigide adiungitur. nam si ποτέ et ἄλλοτε sibi respondent, varia tempora indicantur ¹). quapropter eae voces per xa ὶ connecti non possunt, non magis quam Latinis modo et modo dicere licet pro modo - modo. :