Aristotle Poetics 25.13

ed. Henry James Pye

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as the difficulties in the following passage are solved by Hippias the Thafian. Δίδομεν δὲ οἱ [κ] will imply a promise; but change the accent from the antepenult to the penult and διδόμεν will only be an order to the dream to give hope.

Poetics. Aristotle. ed. Henry James Pye. London. 1792.

Current edition Experimental

The Poetic of Aristotle (Henry James Pye, revised 1792) (OCR draft) (English) (Henry James Pye's revised 1792 English translation, corrected against the 1788 first edition, aligned to the Kassel reference edition, and supplied with a selective apparatus of substantive 1788 readings.)

Provisional text from uncorrected OCR; expect errors.

Editions (4)
Περὶ ποιητικῆς (OCR draft) (Aristotle, Poetics. Immanuel Bekker, editor, Aristotelis Opera, volume 2. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1837.) — 25 focus
Περὶ ποιητικῆς (OCR draft) Perseus (Aristotle, De arte poetica liber. Rudolf Kassel, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1965. Reference edition for passage alignment.) — 25 focus
Poetics, Greek text (Ingram Bywater, 1909) (OCR draft) Experimental (Ingram Bywater's Greek text of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1909.) — 25 focus
Poetics, Greek text (Franz Ritter, 1839) (OCR draft) Experimental (Franz Ritter's 1839 Greek edition, corrected against OCR of the represented copy and aligned to the conventional Perseus chapter-and-subchapter sequence.) — 25 focus
Translations (13)
Poetics (W. H. Fyfe) (OCR draft) Perseus (William Hamilton Fyfe's English translation of Aristotle's Poetics, Loeb Classical Library, 1939 printing.) — 25 focus
Arabic Poetics (Badawī edition, 1953) (OCR draft) (The ancient Arabic translation of Aristotle's Poetics in ʿAbd al-Raḥmān Badawī's 1953 edition.) — 25 focus
Poetics (S. H. Butcher, 1911) (OCR draft) Experimental (S. H. Butcher's English translation from Aristotle's Theory of Poetry and Fine Art, fourth edition, 1911.) — 25 focus
Aristotle on the Art of Poetry (Ingram Bywater, 1909) (OCR draft) Experimental (Ingram Bywater's English translation of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1909.) — 25 focus
Poetics (Thomas Twining, 1789) (OCR draft) Experimental (Thomas Twining's English translation of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1789 and aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 25.13 focus
It cannot, perhaps, be said, that they are either what is best, or what is true; but, as Xenophanes says, opinions "taken up at random:" these are things, however, not clearly known.
The Poetic of Aristotle (Theodore Alois Buckley) (OCR draft) Experimental (Theodore Alois Buckley's English translation, first published in 1850 and represented from the Henry G. Bohn 1857 printing; corrected against a second OCR and aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 25.13 focus
And in what he says of Dolon, —— of form unhappy It may be said that εἶδος κακὸς does not signify a body without symmetry, but a deformed face. For the Cretans call a man with a good face εὺειδής. And, For ζωρότερον may not mean undiluted wine, as for 1 2 3 4 intemperate drinkers, but wine poured out rapidly. But a thing is said metaphorically,
Poetica Latine conversa (Franciscus Ritter, 1839) (OCR draft) Experimental (Franz Ritter's Latin translation, corrected against OCR of the represented copy and aligned to the conventional Perseus chapter-and-subchapter sequence.) — 25 focus
La poëtique d'Aristote (André Dacier, 1692) (OCR draft) Experimental (André Dacier's French translation of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1692.) — 25.13 focus
car il peut bien être que ce qu'il en dit n'eſt, ny vray, ny meilleur de cette maniére; mais il a ſuivi ce qu'on en a publié, & d'ailleurs, comme Xenophanes l'a fort bien dit, qui eſt aſſuré de connoître ſur cela la verité?
Poetica d'Aristotile (Bernardo Segni, 1549) (OCR draft) Experimental (Bernardo Segni's 1549 Florentine Italian translation, aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 25 focus
De poetica (Antonio Riccobono, 1587) (OCR draft) Experimental (Antonio Riccobono's Latin translation, first published in 1587; text represented from Immanuel Bekker's 1831 edition.) — 25 focus
De arte poetica liber (William of Moerbeke, ca. 1277) (OCR draft) Experimental (William of Moerbeke's medieval Latin translation, represented by the 1953 Aristoteles Latinus edition.) — 25 focus
Arabic Poetics (Abū Bishr Mattā; Tkatsch edition) (OCR draft) Experimental (The Arabic translation attributed to Abū Bishr Mattā, edited by Jaroslaus Tkatsch in 1928 and aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 25 focus
Arabic Poetics (Abū Bishr Mattā; Tkatsch edition, unaligned) (OCR draft) Experimental (Tkatsch's edition of the medieval Arabic translation in its original, unaligned segmentation.) — 25 focus

Commentary

Commentary on the Poetics (Ingram Bywater, 1909) (OCR draft) (Ingram Bywater's English commentary on Aristotle's Poetics.) focus

13. mvp-aristotle-comment-995

1461a ὥσπερ Ξενοφάνει, scil. ἐστίν, 'as they are in the view of Xenophanes' ( v. Kühner, Gr. Gr. 2. 1, p. 421). Other Aristotelian instances of this use of the dative are De caelo 3. 8, 307 a 16
Δημοκρίτῳ δὲ καὶ ἡ σφαῖρα ὡς γωνία τις οὖσα τέμνει ὡς εὐκίνητον.
- De gen. et corr. 1. 8, 325 a 15
Ἐμπεδοκλεῖ τίνα τρόπον ἔσται γένεσις καὶ φθορὰ καὶ ἀλλοίωσις, οὐ δῆλον.
 Xenophanes, we must remember, [ 332 COMMENTARY 1461ª I was the first to lift up his voice against Homer and Hesiod, as the great exponents of a false and immoral conception of the Gods (see fr. 10-12 Diels ).

13. mvp-aristotle-comment-996

1461a2 ἀλλ᾽ οὖν = 'but at any rate' ( Kühner, Gr. Gr. 2. 2 p. 160; comp. Bon. Ind. 33b33 ).

Remarques sur la poëtique d'Aristote (André Dacier, 1692) (OCR draft) (André Dacier's French commentary on Aristotle's Poetics.) focus

20. mvp-aristotle-comment-615

25.13 20. Car il peut bien ètre que ce qu'il en dit n'eſt, ny vray, ny meilleur de cette maniére ; mais il a fuivi ce que l'on en a publié.] 1

21. mvp-aristotle-comment-616

25.13 21. Et d'ailleurs, comme Xenophanes l'a fort bien dit, qui eſt aſſeuré de connoitre ſur cela la verité?] 2

Commentary on the Poetics (Thomas Twining, 1789) (OCR draft) (Thomas Twining's notes on Aristotle's Poetics, aligned to the Kassel reference edition.) focus

238. mvp-aristotle-comment-238

NOTE 238.

25.13 P. 124. BUT, AS XENOPHANES SAYS, &C.
Ἀλλ’ ἔτυχεν, ὥσπερ Ξενοφάνης· ἀλλ’ ΦΑΣΙ τάδε.
Thus all the MSS. and editions. Victorius proposed—
ἀλλ’ ΣΑΦΗ τάδε
: and supported his conjecture by the following fragment of Xenophanes, preserved in Sext. Empiricus , to which he supposes Aristotle to allude:
Καὶ τὸ μὲν οὖν ΣΑΦΕΣ οὔτις ἀνὴρ ἴδεν, οὐδέ τις ἔσται Εἰδὼς, ἀμφὶ θεῶν τε, καὶ ὅσσα λέγω περὶ πάντων. Εἰ γὰρ καὶ τὰ μάλιστα ΤΥΧΟΙ τετελεσμένον εἰπὼν, Αὐτὸς ὅμως οὐκ οἶδε, δόκος δ’ ἐπὶ πᾶσι τέτυκται.
1 Few conjectural emendations invite assent by a more remarkable union of ingenuity and probability: and, as it appears to me, that, without some emendation, nothing consistent or satisfactory can be made of the passage, we need, I think, have little scruple in admitting the reading of Victorius as true, till manuscript authority produces something better.
Xenophanes is here introduced, probably, because he had written against the theology of HOMER and HESIOD. 2 The following lines are quoted from him by Sextus Empiricus:
Πάντα θεοῖς ἀνέθηκαν Ὅμηρός θ’ Ἡσίοδός τε, Ὅσσα παρ’ ἀνθρώποισιν ὀνείδεα καὶ ψόγος ἐστὶ, ΚΛΕΠΤΕΙΝ, ΜΟΙΧΕΥΕΙΝ τε, καὶ ΑΛΛΗΛΟΥΣ ΑΠΑΤΕΥΕΙΝ.
By alluding to those other verses, where he descants on the uncertainty and obscurity of all inquiries relative to the nature of the Gods, and asserts, that all, on that subject, is mere conjecture and opinion, Aristotle seems, slily enough, to have intended to make Xenophanes answer himself; and to excuse Homer's theology, even by the testimony of one who had been most forward to condemn it.
"These may be opinions taken up at random, as Xenophanes says; and his representation of the Gods may be the true:—but, as he himself owns, these are matters not clearly known.
Ἀλλ’ οὐ σαφῆ τάδε.
—Homer was therefore right, as a Poet, in following popular tradition and belief."
Aristotle also alludes here, without doubt, to the objections of PLATO, De Repub. II. p. 150, &c. ed. Massey.
I cannot forbear to mention one curious maxim of Xenophanes about drinking, which we find in some pleasant elegiac lines preserved in Athenæus. 3 It was his opinion, it seems, that no man had drunk too much, provided he was able to walk home without a guide.
Οὐχ ὕβρις πίνειν δ’ ὁπόσον μεν ἔχων ἀφίκοιο Οἴκαδ’ ΑΝΕΥ ΠΡΟΠΟΛΟΥ. —
4 And what says the severe and moral PLATO on this subject?—He forbids young men this indulgence, but allows it to old:—
μέθης δὲ, καὶ πολυοινίας τὸ παράπαν ΤΟΝ ΝΕΟΝ ἀπέχεσθαι.
Till the age of 18, he allows no wine; for, to drink it at that time of life, he says, is
"adding fire to fire, both in body and mind."
—
πῦρ ἐπὶ πῦρ ὀχετεύειν, ἐις τε τὸ σῶμα, καὶ τὴν ψυχήν.
From 18 to 30, a moderate use of wine might be allowed:—
οἴνου γεύεσθαί τε ΜΕΤΡΙΟΥ.
At 40, and after, it might be used in a jolly kind of way—
ἐις παιδιάν—ὥστε ἀνηβᾶν ἡμᾶς, καὶ δυσθυμίας ΛΗΘΗΝ γίγνεσθαι, μαλακώτερον ἐκ σκληροτέρου τὸ τῆς ψυχῆς ἦθος, καθάπερ ἐις πῦρ σίδηρον ἐντεθέντα, γιγνόμενον καὶ οὕτως εὐπλαστότερον εἶναι.
For wine, says he, was given to man, as—
φάρμακον — ἐπίκουρον τῆς τοῦ ΓΗΡΩΣ αὐστηρότητος.
— De Leg. II. p. 666. ed. Serr.

Commentary on the Poetics (Henry James Pye, 1792) (OCR draft) (Henry James Pye's 1792 English commentary, aligned to the Kassel reference edition.) focus

25.9. mvp-aristotle-comment-117 25.13

OBJECTIONS MAY BE CONFUTED BY THE DIVISION OF THE SENTENCE.

THAT is the punctuation. Shakespear has strongly exemplified this in his prologue to the clown's play in Midsummer Night's Dream. [T] Mr. Sheridan has pointed out many instances of this breach of propriety in his Treatise on Elocution, which are frequently made by the clergy in the usual mode of reading the Liturgy. One is very common, even among good readers, which, befides offending greatly against euphony, makes nonsense of the passage. I mean in the prayer for the King. • Our most gracious sovereign lord King George.' This is commonly read with a stop after sovereign, making it a substantive, and giving his majesty a ridiculous title, something like that of a duke's younger fon. The stop should be obviously after lord, making sovereign an adjective. Our sovereign lord, the King, is the general legal defignation of his majesty. Turn to a common prayer book of Queen Anne, and the abfurdity will be still more striking. I have heard fome careless readers in the prayer for the Prince read, ‘George Prince of Wales, exactly as if they were speaking of a private inhabitant of the principality. The following line of Pope, • And make immortal verse as mean as mine,' [T] See Note IV. Chap. xIx. will
will have opposite meanings, according to the position of the stop, after ' immortal,' or construction. ، verse,' which last by the way is the most natural

Commentarius in Aristotelis Poeticam (Franciscus Ritter, 1839) (OCR draft) (Ritter's Latin commentary, extracted from the 1839 volume, divided by Ritter's chapters and sections, and linked to the corresponding Perseus reference subsections.) focus

7. mvp-aristotle-comment-190

Ritter, cap. 25 § 7

εἰ δὲ μηδετέρως, ὅτι οὕτω φασίν : si neque ea excusatio fieri potest, contra accidens peccatum esse, neque altera, id quod oporteat poetam fingere, dicatur sic ferri hominum fama. inepta excusatio, quae quid valeat perbene intellexit verus Aristoteles c. 24, 10. ὥστε τὸ λέ γειν ὅτι ἀνήρητο ἂν ὁ μῦθος γελοῖον, cet. cf, c. 14, 5. 15,8. 17,3. ἀλλ᾽ ἔτυχεν ὡς παρά Ξενοφάνει: sed acciderunt ut est apud Xenophanem. haec pertinent ad Xenophanis de dis deorumque natura iudicium, quod multum distabat a ceteris poetis vulgarem opinionem et fabulas popularium sectantibus, partim in opere περὶ Φύσεως partim in Sillis sive Iambis pronuntiatum. vid. Sext. Empiricus adv. Mathem. VII, 49 et IX, 193. sententia igitur haec est: fortasse mala sunt et falsa quae de dis feruntur, et potius sic se habuere 6) Fortasse hoc ipsum ex Aristophanis fabula quadam, v. c. ex Gerytade vel alia, profectum est. quae in Ranis Aeschylus de sua poesi et Euripides de sua gloriatur v. 907 - 1073., alter alterum irridens, haec eo recurrunt ut Aeschylus dicat se ostendisse homines quales esse oporteat, Euripides contra dicat se fecisse quales sint.ut est apud Xenophanem, sed haec non dicunt. relicuum est ut de loci scriptura dispiciamus. codices fere (cf. not. crit.) praebent Ξενοφάνει vel Ξενοφάνη vel Ξενοφάνῃ, quarum formarum altera et tertia leviter a prima aberrant. hanc igitur ex pluribus et fidelioribus codicibus sumptam recipio, et leve ac vulgare vitium ὥσπερ in ὡς παρὰ corrigendum existimo. hoc ipsum vitium quartam illius nominis formam Ξενοφάνης videtur procreasse, quae apud Aldum et in libro Bc (si fides est silentio) reperitur: sed ἔτυχεν ὥσπερ Ξενοφάνης quid sit nemo explicare poterit. Victorius in sequentibus ἀλλ' οὐ φασι τάδε vitium latere suspicatus scribendum coniecit ἀλλ' οὐ σαφῆ τάδε, quo recepto nonnulli legunt ἀλλ' ἔτυχεν ὥσπερ Ξενοφάνει οὐ σαφῆ τάδε : sed haec quo pertineant neque satis liquet et illa ἀλλ' οὐ φασι τάδε certe ab omni dubitatione tuta sunt. ἴσως οὐ βέλτιον μέν: δὲ ab Aldo post ἴσως additum conducere videatur ad iuvandam iustam orationis iuncturam, sed ea ipsa apud hunc hominem saepius desideratur. οἷον τὰ περὶ τῶν ὅπλων κτλ. intelligit verba Homeri Il. K. 152. ἔγχεα δέ σφιν ὄρθ᾽ ἐπὶ σαυρωτῆρος ἐνήλατο. quid vitii in his invenerint critici illi ad controversias nimium proclives ex Porphyrii ad versum illum adnotatione (vid. Schol. in Homeri Il. ed. Bekker. pag. 279 b 42) discimus: φαύλη δοκεῖ ἡ τῶν δοράτων ἐπὶ σαυρωτῆρας στάσις· καὶ δὴ πολλαχοῦ θόρυβον ἤδη πεποίηκε νύκτωρ ἓν μόνον πεσόν. λύει δ' ᾿Αριστοτέλης (respicit Problemata Homerica, non hunc Poeticae locum) λέγων ὅτι τοιαῦ τα ἀεὶ ποιεῖ Ὅμηρος οἷα ἦν τότε. quid sit σαυρωτήρ explicat scholiasta anonymus in eadem illa farragine 1. c. in hunc modum : σαυρωτήρ δέ ἐστι τὸ ἀπολῆγον μέρος τοῦ δόρατος, ὅπερ ἀντίκειται τῇ αἰχμῇ, ὃν καὶ οὐρίαχον καλοῦσιν. οὕτω γὰρ τότ᾽ ἐνόμιζον, ὥσπερ καὶ νῦν Ἰλλυριοί: similia his Porphyrius 1. c. ἦν δὲ τοιαῦτα τὰ· παλαιὰ οἷάπερ καὶ νῦν ἐν τοῖς βαρβάροις· πολλοὶ δὲ οὕτω χρῶνται τῶν βαρβάρων.