Lucian of Samosata, Hermotimus, ed. Kenneth Kilburn, 36

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ΛΥΚΙΝΟΣ

Οὐδὲν πρὸς ἔπος, ὦ Ἑρμότιμε. τὰ γὰρ ὁμολογούμενα τοῖς ἀμφισβητουμένοις εἰκάζεις, πάμπολυ αὐτῶν διαφέροντα. ἢ τί ἂν φαίης; ἔστιν ᾧτινι ἐντετύχηκας λέγοντι τὰς δύο δυάδας συντεθείσας τὸν ἑπτὰ ἢ ἕνδεκα ἀριθμὸν ἀποτελεῖν;

ΕΡΜΟΤΙΜΟΣ

Οὐκ ἔγωγε. ἢ μαίνοιτ' ἂν ὁ μὴ τέτταρα ξυμβαίνειν λέγων.

ΛΥΚΙΝΟΣ

Τί δὲ, ἐντετύχηκας πώποτε (καὶ πρὸς Χαρίτων πειρῶ ἀληθεύειν) Στωϊκῷ τινι καὶ Ἐπικουρείῳ μὴ διαφερομένοις περὶ ἀρχῆς ἢ τέλους;

ΕΡΜΟΤΙΜΟΣ

Οὐδαμῶς.

ΛΥΚΙΝΟΣ

Ὅρα τοίνυν μή πώς με παραλογίζῃ, ὦ γενναῖε, καὶ ταῦτα φίλον ὄντα. ζητούντων γὰρ ἡμῶν οἵτινες ἀληθεύουσιν ἐν φιλοσοφίᾳ, σὺ τοῦτο προαρπάσας ἔδωκας φέρων τοῖς Στωϊκοῖς λέγων ὡς οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ τὰ δὶς δύο τέτταρα τιθέντες, ὅπερ ἄδηλον εἰ οὕτως ἔχει. φαῖεν γὰρ ἂν οἱ Ἐπικούρειοι ἢ Πλατωνικοί σφᾶς μὲν οὕτω ξυντιθέναι, ὑμᾶς δὲ πέντε ἢ ἑπτὰ λέγειν αὐτά. ἢ οὐ δοκοῦσί σοι τοῦτο ποιεῖν ὁπόταν ὑμεῖς μὲν μόνον τὸ καλὸν ἀγαθὸν ἡγῆσθε εἶναι, οἱ Ἐπικούρειοι δὲ τὸ ἡδύ; καὶ ὅταν ὑμεῖς λέγητε σώματα εἶναι ἅπαντα, ὁ Πλάτων δὲ νομίζῃ καὶ ἀσώματόν τι ἐν τοῖς οὖσιν εἶναι; ἀλλ’ ὅπερ ἔφην, πλεονεκτικῶς πάνυ τὸ ἀμφισβητούμενον συλλαβὼν ὡς ἀναμφιλόγως ἴδιον τῶν Στωϊκῶν δίδως αὐτοῖς ἔχειν, καίτοι ἀντιλαμβανομένων τῶν ἄλλων καὶ λεγόντων αὐτῶν τοῦτο εἶναι, ἔνθα δὴ κρίσεως μάλιστα οἶμαι δεῖ. ἂν μὲν οὖν πρόδηλον γένηται τοῦτο ὡς Στωϊκῶν ἐστι μόνων τὰ δὶς δύο τέτταρα ἡγεῖσθαι, ὥρα σιωπᾶν τοῖς ἄλλοις. ἄχρι δ’ ἂν αὐτοῦ τούτου πέρι διαμάχωνται, πάντων ὁμοίως ἀκουστέον ἢ εἰδέναι ὅτι πρὸς χάριν δικάζειν δόξομεν.

Hermotimus. Lucian of Samosata. ed. Kenneth Kilburn. Medford, MA. Perseus 5.0.

Sponsored by Perseus Project, Tufts University.

Funding provided by The National Endowment for the Humanities.

Current edition Perseus

Σκύθης ἢ πρόξενος (Greek) (Lucian, Vol. 6. Kilburn, Kenneth, editor. London: William Heinemann, Ltd.; Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1959 (unrenewed copyright).)

Editions (1)

Ἑρμότιμος ἢ Περὶ Αἱρέσεων Perseus (Lucian. Luciani Samosatensis Opera, Vol. 1. Jacobitz, Karl, editor. Leipzig: Teubner, 1909.) — 36 focus

Λυκῖνος

οὐδὲν πρὸς ἔπος, ὦ Ἑρμότιμε· τὰ γὰρ 778 ὁμολογούμενα τοῖς ἀμφισβητουμένοις εἰκάζεις, πάμπολυ αὐτῶν διαφέροντα. ἢ τί ἂν φαίης; ἔστιν ᾧτινι ἐντετύχηκας λέγοντι τὰς δύο δυάδας συντεθείσας τὸν ἑπτὰ ἢ ἕνδεκα ἀριθμὸν ἀποτελεῖν;

Ἑρμότιμος

οὐκ ἔγωγε· ἢ μαίνοιτʼ ἂν ὁ μὴ τέτταρα ξυμβαίνειν λέγων.

Λυκῖνος

τί δαί; ἐντετύχηκας πώποτε — καὶ πρὸς Χαρίτων πειρῶ ἀληθεύειν — Στωϊκῷ τινι καὶ Ἐπικουρείῳ μὴ διαφερομένοις περὶ ἀρχῆς ἢ τέλους;

Ἑρμότιμος

οὐδαμῶς.

Λυκῖνος

ὅρα τοίνυν μή πώς με παραλογίζῃ, ὦ γενναῖε, καὶ ταῦτα φίλον ὄντα· ζητούντων γὰρ ἡμῶν οἵτινες ἀληθεύουσιν ἐν φιλοσοφίᾳ, σὺ τοῦτο προαρπάσας ἔδωκας φέρων τοῖς Στωϊκοῖς λέγων ὡς οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ τὰ δὶς δύο τέτταρα τιθέντες, ὅπερ ἄδηλον εἰ οὕτως ἔχει· φαῖεν γὰρ ἂν οἱ Ἐπικούρειοι ἢ Πλατωνικοί, σφᾶς μὲν 779 οὕτω ξυντιθέναι, ὑμᾶς δὲ πέντε ἢ ἑπτὰ λέγειν αὐτά. ἢ οὐ δοκοῦσί σοι τοῦτο ποιεῖν, ὁπόταν ὑμεῖς μὲν μόνον τὸ καλὸν ἀγαθὸν ἡγῆσθε εἶναι, οἱ Ἐπικούρειοι δὲ τὸ ἡδύ; καὶ ὅταν ὑμεῖς λέγητε σώματα εἶναι ἅπαντα, ὁ Πλάτων δὲ νομίζῃ καὶ ἀσώματόν τι ἐν τοῖς οὖσιν εἶναι; ἀλλʼ ὅπερ ἔφην, πλεονεκτικῶς πάνυ τὸ ἀμφισβητούμενον συλλαβὼν ὡς ἀναμφιλόγως ἴδιον τῶν Στωϊκῶν δίδως αὐτοῖς ἔχειν, καίτοι ἀντιλαμβανομένων τῶν ἄλλων καὶ λεγόν των αὐτῶν τοῦτο εἶναι, ἔνθα δὴ κρίσεως μάλιστα, οἶμαι, δεῖ. ἂν μὲν οὖν πρόδηλον γένηται τοῦτο, ὡς Στωϊκῶν ἐστι μόνων τὰ δὶς δύο τέτταρα ἡγεῖσθαι, ὥρα σιωπᾶν τοῖς ἄλλοις· ἄχρι δʼ ἂν αὐτοῦ τούτου πέρι διαμάχωνται, πάντων ὁμοίως ἀκουστέον ἢ εἰδέναι ὅτι πρὸς χάριν δικάζειν δόξομεν.

Translations (2)

The Scythian or Consul Perseus (Lucian, Vol. 6. Kilburn, Kenneth, translator. London: William Heinemann, Ltd.; Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1959 (unrenewed copyright).) — 36 focus

LYCINUS

That is not to the point at all, Hermotimus. You are comparing what is admitted to what is in dispute, although they differ enormously. Or what would you say? Have you met anyone who says that by putting together two twos he makes the number seven or eleven?

HERMOTIMUS

Not 1 But anyone would be mad who said the answer was not four.

LYCINUS

Well then, have you ever met (and by the Graces try to be truthful) any Stoic and Epicurean who did not differ about principles and ends?

HERMOTIMUS

In no way.

LYCINUS

Make sure then that you are not somehow cheating me, my good sir, and that though I am your friend. For, while we are enquiring who has the truth in philosophy, you have prematurely seized on the answer and taken it and assigned it to the Stoics, when you say that they are the ones who make twice two equal four, although it is not clear that this is so. For the Epicureans and the Platonists would say that they get this result, while you Stoics call it five or seven. Or do you not think that this is what they are doing when you think that only the beautiful is good, while the Epicureans say it is pleasure? And when you say that all things are corporeal, while Plato thinks that there is an incorporeal element in what exists? No, as I said, you very arrogantly lay hold of the bone of contention as being the undisputed property of the Stoics, and give it to them to possess; and yet, when the others are asserting rival claims and saying that it is theirs, then, I think, there is every need for a judgment. If it becomes quite clear then that it is the privilege of the Stoics alone to think that twice two are four, it is time for the rest to be quiet. But as long as they contest this very claim, we must give a hearing to all alike, or realise that we shall be thought to be giving a biased judgment.

Hermotimus, or the Rival Philosophies Perseus (The Works of Lucian of Samosata, Vol. 2. Fowler, Henry Watson and Fowler, Francis George, translators. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.) — 36 focus

[36]

Lycinus

Not to the point. You compare accepted with disputed facts, whereas they are completely different. Tell me, did you ever meet a man who said twice two was seven or eleven?

Hermotimus

Not 1; any one who did not make four of it must be mad.

Lycinus

But on the other hand—try to tell the truth, I adjure you—, did you ever meet a Stoic and an Epicurean who did not differ about principles or ends?

Hermotimus

No.

Lycinus

You are an honest man; now ask yourself whether you are trapping a friend with false logic. We are trying to find out with whom philosophic truth lies; and you beg the question and make a present of that same truth to the Stoics; for you say (what is quite unproved) that they are the people who make twice two four; the Epicureans or Platonists would say that they bring out that result, whereas you get five or seven. Does it not amount to that, when your school reckon goodness the only end, and the Epicureans pleasure? or again when you say everything is material, and Plato recognizes an immaterial element also in all that exists? As I said, you lay hold of the thing in dispute, as though it were the admitted property of the Stoics, and put it into their hands, though the others claim it and maintain that it is theirs; why, it is the very point at issue. If it is once established that Stoics have the monopoly of making four out of twice two, it is time for the rest to hold their tongues; but as long as they refuse to yield that point, we must hear all alike, or be prepared for people’s calling us partial judges.

Lucian of Samosata Hermotimus 36

ed. Kenneth Kilburn

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ΕΡΜΟΤΙΜΟΣ

Οὐκ ἔγωγε. ἢ μαίνοιτ' ἂν ὁ μὴ τέτταρα ξυμβαίνειν λέγων.

ΛΥΚΙΝΟΣ

Τί δὲ, ἐντετύχηκας πώποτε (καὶ πρὸς Χαρίτων πειρῶ ἀληθεύειν) Στωϊκῷ τινι καὶ Ἐπικουρείῳ μὴ διαφερομένοις περὶ ἀρχῆς ἢ τέλους;

ΕΡΜΟΤΙΜΟΣ

Οὐδαμῶς.

Current edition Perseus

Ἑρμότιμος

οὐκ ἔγωγε· ἢ μαίνοιτʼ ἂν ὁ μὴ τέτταρα ξυμβαίνειν λέγων.

Λυκῖνος

τί δαί; ἐντετύχηκας πώποτε — καὶ πρὸς Χαρίτων πειρῶ ἀληθεύειν — Στωϊκῷ τινι καὶ Ἐπικουρείῳ μὴ διαφερομένοις περὶ ἀρχῆς ἢ τέλους;

Ἑρμότιμος

οὐδαμῶς.

LYCINUS

That is not to the point at all, Hermotimus. You are comparing what is admitted to what is in dispute, although they differ enormously. Or what would you say? Have you met anyone who says that by putting together two twos he makes the number seven or eleven?

HERMOTIMUS

Not 1 But anyone would be mad who said the answer was not four.

LYCINUS

Well then, have you ever met (and by the Graces try to be truthful) any Stoic and Epicurean who did not differ about principles and ends?

HERMOTIMUS

In no way.

Lycinus

Hermotimus

Lycinus

Hermotimus

Lycinus

Stable identifiers

Search the Perseus Catalog for:

Search the Perseus Catalog for:

ΕΡΜΟΤΙΜΟΣ Οὐκ ἔγωγε. ἢ μαίνοιτ' ἂν ὁ μὴ τέτταρα ξυμβαίνειν λέγων.

ΛΥΚΙΝΟΣ Τί δὲ, ἐντετύχηκας πώποτε (καὶ πρὸς Χαρίτων πειρῶ ἀληθεύειν) Στωϊκῷ τινι καὶ Ἐπικουρείῳ μὴ διαφερομένοις περὶ ἀρχῆς ἢ τέλους;

ΕΡΜΟΤΙΜΟΣ Οὐδαμῶς.

Current edition Perseus

Ἑρμότιμος οὐκ ἔγωγε· ἢ μαίνοιτʼ ἂν ὁ μὴ τέτταρα ξυμβαίνειν λέγων.

Λυκῖνος τί δαί; ἐντετύχηκας πώποτε — καὶ πρὸς Χαρίτων πειρῶ ἀληθεύειν — Στωϊκῷ τινι καὶ Ἐπικουρείῳ μὴ διαφερομένοις περὶ ἀρχῆς ἢ τέλους;

Ἑρμότιμος οὐδαμῶς.

LYCINUS That is not to the point at all, Hermotimus. You are comparing what is admitted to what is in dispute, although they differ enormously. Or what would you say? Have you met anyone who says that by putting together two twos he makes the number seven or eleven?

HERMOTIMUS Not 1 But anyone would be mad who said the answer was not four.

LYCINUS Well then, have you ever met (and by the Graces try to be truthful) any Stoic and Epicurean who did not differ about principles and ends?

HERMOTIMUS In no way.

Lycinus

Hermotimus

Lycinus

Hermotimus

Lycinus

Stable identifiers

ΕΡΜΟΤΙΜΟΣ

Οὐκ ἔγωγε. ἢ μαίνοιτ' ἂν ὁ μὴ τέτταρα ξυμβαίνειν λέγων.

ΛΥΚΙΝΟΣ

Τί δὲ, ἐντετύχηκας πώποτε (καὶ πρὸς Χαρίτων πειρῶ ἀληθεύειν) Στωϊκῷ τινι καὶ Ἐπικουρείῳ μὴ διαφερομένοις περὶ ἀρχῆς ἢ τέλους;

ΕΡΜΟΤΙΜΟΣ

Οὐδαμῶς.

Ἑρμότιμος

οὐκ ἔγωγε· ἢ μαίνοιτʼ ἂν ὁ μὴ τέτταρα ξυμβαίνειν λέγων.

Λυκῖνος

τί δαί; ἐντετύχηκας πώποτε — καὶ πρὸς Χαρίτων πειρῶ ἀληθεύειν — Στωϊκῷ τινι καὶ Ἐπικουρείῳ μὴ διαφερομένοις περὶ ἀρχῆς ἢ τέλους;

Ἑρμότιμος

οὐδαμῶς.

LYCINUS

That is not to the point at all, Hermotimus. You are comparing what is admitted to what is in dispute, although they differ enormously. Or what would you say? Have you met anyone who says that by putting together two twos he makes the number seven or eleven?

HERMOTIMUS

Not 1 But anyone would be mad who said the answer was not four.

LYCINUS

Well then, have you ever met (and by the Graces try to be truthful) any Stoic and Epicurean who did not differ about principles and ends?

HERMOTIMUS

In no way.