Lucian of Samosata, Juppiter Confutatus, Austin Morris Harmon (Translator), 7

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CYNISCUS

You say that all things come about through the Fates?

ZEUS

Yes, I do.

CYNISCUS

And is it possible for you to change them, to unspin them?

ZEUS

Not by any means.

CYNISCUS

Then do you want me to draw the conclusion or is it patent even without my putting it into words?

ZEUS

It is patent, of course; but those who sacrifice do © not do so for gain, driving a sort of bargain, forsooth, and as it were buying blessings from us; they do so simply to honour what is superior to themselves.

CYNISCUS

Even that is enough, if you yourself admit that sacrifices are not offered for any useful purpose, but by reason of the generosity of men, who honour what is superior. And yet, if one of your sophists were here, he would ask you wherein you allege the gods to be superior, when really they are fellow- slaves with men, and subject to the same mistresses, the Fates. For their immortality will not suffice to make them seem better, since that feature certainly is far worse, because men are set free by death at least, if by nothing else, while with you gods the thing goes on to infinity and your slavery is eternal, being controlled by a long thread.¹

Juppiter Confutatus. Lucian of Samosata. Austin Morris Harmon (Translator). United States. Perseus 5.0.

Funding provided by National Endowment for the Humanities.

Current edition Perseus

Zeus Catechized (English) (Lucian, Vol. 2. Harmon, Austin Morris, editor. London: William Heinemann, Ltd.; Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1915.)

Editions (1)

Ζεὺς ἐλεγχόμενος Perseus (Lucian, Vol. 2. Harmon, Austin Morris, editor. London: William Heinemann, Ltd.; Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1915.) — 7 focus

Κυνίσκος

πάντα φὴς ἐκ τῶν Μοιρῶν γίγνεσθαι;

Ζεύς

φημὶ γάρ.

Κυνίσκος

ὑμῖν δὲ δυνατὸν ἀλλάττειν ταῦτα καὶ ἀνακλώθειν;

Ζεύς

οὐδαμῶς.

Κυνίσκος

βούλει οὖν ἐπαγάγω καὶ τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο, ἢ δῆλον, κἂν μὴ εἴπω αὐτό;

Ζεύς

δῆλον μέν. οἱ δέ γε θύοντες οὐ τῆς χρείας ἕνεκα θύουσιν, ἀντίδοσιν δή¹ τινα ποιούμενοι καὶ ὥσπερ ὠνούμενοι τὰ ἀγαθὰ παρʼ ἡμῶν, ἀλλὰ τιμῶντες ἄλλως τὸ βέλτιον.

Κυνίσκος

ἱκανὸν καὶ τοῦτο, εἰ καὶ σὺ φὴς ἐπὶ μηδενὶ χρησίμῳ γίγνεσθαι τὰς θυσίας, εὐγνωμοσύνῃ δέ τινι τῶν ἀνθρώπων τιμώντων τὸ βέλτιον. καίτοι εἴ τις τῶν σοφιστῶν ἐκείνων παρῆν, ἤρετο ἄν σε καθʼ ὅ τι βελτίους φὴς τοὺς θεούς, καὶ ταῦτα ὁμοδούλους τῶν ἀνθρώπων ὄντας καὶ ὑπὸ ταῖς αὐταῖς δεσποίναις ταῖς Μοίραις ταττομένους. οὐ γὰρ ἀποχρήσει αὐτοῖς τὸ ἀθανάτους εἶναι, ὡς διʼ αὐτὸ ἀμείνους δοκεῖν· ἐπεὶ τοῦτό γε μακρῷ χεῖρόν ἐστιν, εἴγε τοὺς μὲν κἂν ὁ θάνατος εἰς ἐλευθερίαν ἀφείλετο, ὑμῖν δὲ εἰς ἄπειρον ἐκπίπτει τὸ πρᾶγμα καὶ ἀΐδιος ἡ δουλεία γίνεται ὑπὸ μακρῷ τῷ λίνῳ στρεφομένη.

Translations (1)

Zeus Cross-examined Perseus (The Works of Lucian of Samosata, Vol. 3. Fowler, Henry Watson and Fowler, Francis George, translators. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.) — 7 focus

Cyniscus

Everything proceeds from the Fates, you say?

Zeus

Yes.

Cyniscus

And is it in your power to unspin what they have spun?

Zeus

It is not.

Cyniscus

Shall I proceed, or is the inference clear?

Zeus

Oh, clear enough. But you seem to think that people sacrifice to us from ulterior motives; that they are driving a bargain with us, buying blessings, as it were: not at all; it is a disinterested testimony to our superior merit.

Cyniscus

There you are, then. As you say, sacrifice answers no useful purpose; it is just our good-natured way of acknowledging your superiority. And mind you, if we had a sophist here, he would want to know all about that superiority. You are our fellow slaves, he would say; if the Fates are our mistresses, they are also yours. Your immortality will not serve you; that only makes things worse. We mortals, after all, are liberated by death: but for you there is no end to the evil; that long thread of yours means eternal servitude.

Notes on the current edition

Zeus Catechized

1. Something of acommonplace: see Pliny, Nat. Hist. 2, 27; Longinus de Subl. 9, 7.

Lucian of Samosata Juppiter Confutatus 7

Austin Morris Harmon (Translator)

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CYNISCUS

You say that all things come about through the Fates?

ZEUS

Yes, I do.

CYNISCUS

And is it possible for you to change them, to unspin them?

ZEUS

Not by any means.

CYNISCUS

Then do you want me to draw the conclusion or is it patent even without my putting it into words?

ZEUS

It is patent, of course; but those who sacrifice do © not do so for gain, driving a sort of bargain, forsooth, and as it were buying blessings from us; they do so simply to honour what is superior to themselves.

Current edition Perseus

Κυνίσκος

πάντα φὴς ἐκ τῶν Μοιρῶν γίγνεσθαι;

Ζεύς

φημὶ γάρ.

Κυνίσκος

ὑμῖν δὲ δυνατὸν ἀλλάττειν ταῦτα καὶ ἀνακλώθειν;

Ζεύς

οὐδαμῶς.

Κυνίσκος

βούλει οὖν ἐπαγάγω καὶ τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο, ἢ δῆλον, κἂν μὴ εἴπω αὐτό;

Cyniscus

Everything proceeds from the Fates, you say?

Zeus

Yes.

Cyniscus

And is it in your power to unspin what they have spun?

Zeus

It is not.

Cyniscus

Shall I proceed, or is the inference clear?

Zeus

Oh, clear enough. But you seem to think that people sacrifice to us from ulterior motives; that they are driving a bargain with us, buying blessings, as it were: not at all; it is a disinterested testimony to our superior merit.

Notes on the current edition

Stable identifiers

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Search the Perseus Catalog for:

CYNISCUS You say that all things come about through the Fates?

ZEUS Yes, I do.

CYNISCUS And is it possible for you to change them, to unspin them?

ZEUS Not by any means.

CYNISCUS Then do you want me to draw the conclusion or is it patent even without my putting it into words?

ZEUS It is patent, of course; but those who sacrifice do © not do so for gain, driving a sort of bargain, forsooth, and as it were buying blessings from us; they do so simply to honour what is superior to themselves.

Current edition Perseus

Κυνίσκος πάντα φὴς ἐκ τῶν Μοιρῶν γίγνεσθαι;

Ζεύς φημὶ γάρ.

Κυνίσκος ὑμῖν δὲ δυνατὸν ἀλλάττειν ταῦτα καὶ ἀνακλώθειν;

Ζεύς οὐδαμῶς.

Κυνίσκος βούλει οὖν ἐπαγάγω καὶ τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο, ἢ δῆλον, κἂν μὴ εἴπω αὐτό;

Cyniscus Everything proceeds from the Fates, you say?

Zeus Yes.

Cyniscus And is it in your power to unspin what they have spun?

Zeus It is not.

Cyniscus Shall I proceed, or is the inference clear?

Zeus Oh, clear enough. But you seem to think that people sacrifice to us from ulterior motives; that they are driving a bargain with us, buying blessings, as it were: not at all; it is a disinterested testimony to our superior merit.

Notes on the current edition

Stable identifiers

CYNISCUS

You say that all things come about through the Fates?

ZEUS

Yes, I do.

CYNISCUS

And is it possible for you to change them, to unspin them?

ZEUS

Not by any means.

CYNISCUS

Then do you want me to draw the conclusion or is it patent even without my putting it into words?

ZEUS

It is patent, of course; but those who sacrifice do © not do so for gain, driving a sort of bargain, forsooth, and as it were buying blessings from us; they do so simply to honour what is superior to themselves.

Κυνίσκος

πάντα φὴς ἐκ τῶν Μοιρῶν γίγνεσθαι;

Ζεύς

φημὶ γάρ.

Κυνίσκος

ὑμῖν δὲ δυνατὸν ἀλλάττειν ταῦτα καὶ ἀνακλώθειν;

Ζεύς

οὐδαμῶς.

Κυνίσκος

βούλει οὖν ἐπαγάγω καὶ τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο, ἢ δῆλον, κἂν μὴ εἴπω αὐτό;

Cyniscus

Everything proceeds from the Fates, you say?

Zeus

Yes.

Cyniscus

And is it in your power to unspin what they have spun?

Zeus

It is not.

Cyniscus

Shall I proceed, or is the inference clear?

Zeus

Oh, clear enough. But you seem to think that people sacrifice to us from ulterior motives; that they are driving a bargain with us, buying blessings, as it were: not at all; it is a disinterested testimony to our superior merit.