Plato, Republic, ed. John Burnet, 2.363

Search the Perseus Catalog for:

← Previous Next →

[363] λέγουσι δέ που καὶ παρακελεύονται πατέρες τε ὑέσιν, καὶ πάντες οἱ 363a τινῶν κηδόμενοι, ὡς χρὴ δίκαιον εἶναι, οὐκ αὐτὸ δικαιοσύνην ἐπαινοῦντες ἀλλὰ τὰς ἀπʼ αὐτῆς εὐδοκιμήσεις, ἵνα δοκοῦντι δικαίῳ εἶναι γίγνηται ἀπὸ τῆς δόξης ἀρχαί τε καὶ γάμοι καὶ ὅσαπερ Γλαύκων διῆλθεν ἄρτι, ἀπὸ τοῦ εὐδοκιμεῖν ὄντα τῷ δικαίῳ. ἐπὶ πλέον δὲ οὗτοι τὰ τῶν δοξῶν λέγουσιν. τὰς γὰρ παρὰ θεῶν εὐδοκιμήσεις ἐμβάλλοντες ἄφθονα ἔχουσι λέγειν ἀγαθά, τοῖς ὁσίοις ἅ φασι θεοὺς διδόναι· ὥσπερ ὁ γενναῖος Ἡσίοδός τε καὶ Ὅμηρός φασιν, ὁ μὲν τὰς δρῦς 363b τοῖς δικαίοις τοὺς θεοὺς ποιεῖν

ἄκρας μέν τε φέρειν βαλάνους, μέσσας δὲ μελίσσας· εἰροπόκοι δʼ ὄιες, φησίν, μαλλοῖς καταβεβρίθασι

Hes. WD 232 , καὶ ἄλλα δὴ πολλὰ ἀγαθὰ τούτων ἐχόμενα. παραπλήσια δὲ καὶ ὁ ἕτερος·

ὥς τέ τευ

γάρ φησιν

ἢ βασιλῆος ἀμύμονος ὅς τε θεουδὴς

εὐδικίας ἀνέχῃσι, φέρῃσι δὲ γαῖα μέλαινα

363c

πυροὺς καὶ κριθάς, βρίθῃσι δὲ δένδρεα καρπῷ,

τίκτῃ δʼ ἔμπεδα μῆλα, θάλασσα δὲ παρέχῃ ἰχθῦς.

Hom. Od. 19.109 Μουσαῖος δὲ τούτων νεανικώτερα τἀγαθὰ καὶ ὁ ὑὸς αὐτοῦ παρὰ θεῶν διδόασιν τοῖς δικαίοις· εἰς Ἅιδου γὰρ ἀγαγόντες τῷ λόγῳ καὶ κατακλίναντες καὶ συμπόσιον τῶν ὁσίων κατασκευάσαντες ἐστεφανωμένους ποιοῦσιν τὸν ἅπαντα χρόνον 363d ἤδη διάγειν μεθύοντας, ἡγησάμενοι κάλλιστον ἀρετῆς μισθὸν μέθην αἰώνιον. οἱ δʼ ἔτι τούτων μακροτέρους ἀποτείνουσιν μισθοὺς παρὰ θεῶν· παῖδας γὰρ παίδων φασὶ καὶ γένος κατόπισθεν λείπεσθαι τοῦ ὁσίου καὶ εὐόρκου. ταῦτα δὴ καὶ ἄλλα τοιαῦτα ἐγκωμιάζουσιν δικαιοσύνην· τοὺς δὲ ἀνοσίους αὖ καὶ ἀδίκους εἰς πηλόν τινα κατορύττουσιν ἐν Ἅιδου καὶ κοσκίνῳ ὕδωρ ἀναγκάζουσι φέρειν, ἔτι τε ζῶντας 363e εἰς κακὰς δόξας ἄγοντες, ἅπερ Γλαύκων περὶ τῶν δικαίων δοξαζομένων δὲ ἀδίκων διῆλθε τιμωρήματα, ταῦτα περὶ τῶν ἀδίκων λέγουσιν, ἄλλα δὲ οὐκ ἔχουσιν. ὁ μὲν οὖν ἔπαινος καὶ ὁ ψόγος οὗτος ἑκατέρων.

Republic. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1905.

Sponsored by Perseus Project, Tufts University.

Funding provided by The Annenberg CPB/Project.

Current edition Perseus

Πολιτεία (Greek) (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.)

Translations (1)

Republic Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).) — 2.363 focus

[363] Fathers, when they address exhortations to their sons, and all those who have others in their charge,¹ 363a urge the necessity of being just, not by praising justice itself, but the good repute with mankind that accrues from it, the object that they hold before us being that by seeming to be just the man may get from the reputation office and alliances and all the good things that Glaucon just now enumerated as coming to the unjust man from his good name. But those people draw out still further this topic of reputation. For, throwing in good standing with the gods, they have no lack of blessings to describe, which they affirm the gods give to pious men, even as the worthy Hesiod and Homer declare, 363b the one that the gods make the oaks bear for the just:

Acorns on topmost branches and swarms of bees on their mid-trunks,

and he tells how the

Flocks of the fleece-bearing sheep are laden and weighted with soft wool,

Hes. WD 232ff. and of many other blessings akin to these; and similarly the other poet:

Even as when a good king, who rules in the fear of the high gods,

Upholds justice and right, and the black earth yields him her foison,

363c

Barley and wheat, and his trees are laden and weighted with fair fruits,

Increase comes to his flocks and the ocean is teeming with fishes.

Hom. Od. 19.109
And Musaeus and his son² have³ a more excellent song⁴ than these of the blessings that the gods bestow on the righteous. For they conduct them to the house of Hades in their tale and arrange a symposium of the saints,⁵ where, reclined on couches crowned with wreaths, 363d they entertain the time henceforth with wine, as if the fairest meed of virtue were an everlasting drunk. And others extend still further the rewards of virtue from the gods. For they say that the children’s children⁶ of the pious and oath-keeping man and his race thereafter never fail. Such and such-like are their praises of justice. But the impious and the unjust they bury in mud⁷ in the house of Hades and compel them to fetch water in a sieve,⁸ and, while they still live, 363e they bring them into evil repute, and all the sufferings that Glaucon enumerated as befalling just men who are thought to be unjust, these they recite about the unjust, but they have nothing else to say.⁹ Such is the praise and the censure of the just and of the unjust.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

αὐτὸ δικαιοσύνην . Not αὐτοδικαιοσύνην (with the second hand in A), which would be the (chiefly postPlatonic) expression for the Idea of Justice (cf. αὐτοάνθ ρωπος and the like). αὐτό is ipsum, ‘by itself,’ as in αὐτοὶ γάρ ἐσμεν: cf. Theaet. 146 E γνῶναι ἐπιστήμην αὐτὸ ὄ τι ποτ’ ἐστιν, and infra V 472 C, X 612 B (cited by J. and C.). αὐτό may be thus used even when the feminine of the article is present, e.g. Prot. 361 A αὐτὸ ἡ ἀρετή: cf. also Crat. 411 D .

γίγνηται . The nominatives are treated as equivalent to a neuter plural, whence the singular verb. Cf. Symp. 188 B , Laws 925 E, Andocides I 145. γίγνεσθαι is the verb in each of these examples. See also infra V 462 E.

τῷ δικαίῳ . Schneider is right in refusing to change the δικαίῳ of A, II and most MSS to ἀδίκῳ, which has the authority of a few inferior MSS. The reference in διῆλθεν ἄρτι is no doubt to 362 B, where the benefits accrue to the man who seems to be just, although in reality he is unjust. But ὄντα etc. should be taken, not with διῆλθεν, but as part of the parents' exhortation. This yields a better rhythm, and much better sense. The parents exhort their children to be just, in order that ( ἵνα depends on χρὴ δίκαιον εἶναι) they may obtain the rewards ἀπὸ τοῦ εὐδοκιμεῖν ὄντα τῷ δικαίῳ. They very properly assume that the surest way to seem to be just (and so to obtain the rewards of justice) is to be just: cf. Xen. Mem. II 6. 39 συντομωτάτη τε καὶ ἀσφαλεστάτη καὶ καλλίστη ὁδὸς—ὅ τι ἂν βούλῃ δοκεῖν ἀγαθὸς εἶναι, τοῦτο καὶ γενέσθαι ἀγαθὸν πειρᾶσθαι and ib. I 7. 1 with Heracl. Fr. 137 ed. Bywater συντομωτάτην ὁδὸν—εἰς εὐδοξίαν τὸ γενέσθαι ἀγαθόν. Glauco's picture of the just man as one who seems to be unjust is untrue to the facts of experience, as Socrates points out in X 612 D: nor did even Glauco go so far as to say that the unjust man, qua unjust, ηὐδοκίμει, but only ὁ δοκῶν δίκαιος εἶναι (who may, of course, be unjust). The divorce between appearance and reality is purely argumentative, and out of place in parental exhortations. Further, in order to make ἀπὸ τοῦ εὐδοκιμεῖν ὄντα etc. represent what Glauco said, we should have to read τῷ ἀδίκῳ μὲν δοκοῦντι δὲ δικαίῳ: otherwise the words δοξαζομένων δὲ ἀδίκων in the corresponding phrase (363 E) might just as well be omitted. If ὄντα is construed with διῆλθεν, the words τῷ δικαίῳ must (with Ast) be expunged: but that the clause represents what the parents say is further proved by the exact correspondence of ἀπὸ τοῦ εὐδοκιμεῖν ὄντα τῷ δικαίῳ with τὰς ἀπ’ αὐτῆς (sc. δικαιοσύνης ) εὐδοκιμήσεις, which is what the parents praise. I have dwelt on this point at some length because recent English editors (except Tucker) have wrongly deserted Paris A.

τοῖς ὁσίοις depends on ἀγαθά (‘good things for the pious’): cf. ἀγαθὰ διῆλθε τῷ τοῦ ἀδίκου I 348 A note This is much simpler than to punctuate ἀγαθά, τοῖς ο<*>σίοις ἅ as the other editors do. Such a postponement of the relative is rare, and here, I think, unduly harsh, in spite of the analogy of III 390 B and IV 425 C. Cobet felt the difficulty when in an unhappy moment he suggested ἀγαθά, ἃ τοῖς ὁσίοις κτλ.

Ἡσίοδός τε κτλ. Hesiod and Homer are appealed to as recognised theological authorities: see Hdt. II 53.

ἄκρας ‐‐ καταβεβρίθασι . OD. 232 f. τοῖσι (i.e. ἰθυδίκῃσιν ἀνδράσι) φέρει μὲν γαῖα πολὺν β<*>ον, οὔρεσι δὲ δρῦς | ἄκρη μέν τε φέρει βαλάνους, μέσση δὲ μελίσσας· | εἰροπόκοι δ’ ὄϊες μαλλοῖς καταβεβρίθασι. Further rewards of justice ( ἄλλα δὴ πολλὰ ἀγαθά) are enumerated in vv. 227—231, and 235—237. Many other illustrations in support of Plato's attack on Greek religion throughout this passage will be found in Nägelsbach's Hom. Theol. and Nachhom. Theol. passim.

ὥστε τευ ‐‐ ἰχθῦς . Od. XIX 109 ff. The ἤ before βασιλῆος is difficult: apparently the author intended to give two comparisons, but dropped the second. We are hardly justified, I think, in abolishing the anacoluthon by reading (with Platt) ὥστέ τεο βασιλῆος or (with Ameis) ὥστε τευ ἦ.

Μουσαῖος κτλ. By Musaeus' son Plato probably means Eumolpus (cf. Suidas s. vv. Εὔμολπος and Μουσαῖος). In this section of the argument Plato directs his attack against certain forms of the Orphic conception of a future life: see Lobeck Aglaophamus p. 807 with Rohde Psyche^{2} II pp. 127, 129 notes, and Dieterich Nekyia pp. 72 ff. 77 ff. notes Lobeck refers to Plut. Comp. Cim. et Lucull. 2 Πλάτων ἐπισκώπτει τοὺς περὶ τὸν Ὀρφέα τοῖς εὖ βεβιωκόσι φάσκοντας ἀποκεῖσθαι γέρας ἐν ᾅδου μέθην αἰώνιον and id. Ne suav. quidem vivi posse sec. Epic. 1105 B, where the allusion to Plato is less clear: also D. L. VI 4.

συμπόσιον τῶν ὁσίων . ὅσιοι was the regular appellation of the μύσται ( ὁσίους μύστας hymn. Orph. 84. 3 ed. Abel). For the συμπόσιον cf. [ Axioch.] 371 D συμπόσιά τε εὐμελῆ καὶ εἰλαπίναι αὐτοχορήγητοι καὶ ἀκήρατος ἀλυπία καὶ ἡδεῖα δίαιτα. The stock example in antiquity of earthly virtue rewarded by the delights of a sensuous paradise is Heracles: see e.g. Pind. Nem. I 71, Theocr. XVII 28 f. and Horace Od. III 3. 9 f., IV 8. 29 f. A somewhat higher note is struck in Pind. Ol. II 61 ff. and Fr. 129 f. Several of these passages shew traces of Orphic influence, but the special instance of Heracles is traceable to Homer ( Od. XI 602 f.).

μέθην αἰώνιον may be illustrated from the fragment of Pherecrates ap. Athen. VI 268 E ff.

ἀποτίνουσιν . See cr. n. The reading of A is defended by Stallbaum as an abbreviation for μακροτέρους λόγους ἀποτείνουσι περὶ μισθῶν παρὰ θεῶν; but no other example of this harsh condensation has been adduced, and the sense is far from satisfactory. A better meaning is conveyed by Schneider's translation, “Andere aber lassen die Belohnungen der Götter noch weiter reichen als diese”: for it is clear from the next clause that μακροτέρους (‘more extensive,’ not, of course, ‘greater,’ which would be μείζους) refers to the extension of the rewards of virtue beyond the personality of the individual concerned. But μακροτέρους ἀποτείνουσιν μισθούς is (to say the least) an obscure and difficult expression; and ἀποτίνουσιν (i.q. λέγουσιν ἀποτίνεσθαι) receives strong support from the parallel use of διδόασιν in C above, and κατορύττουσιν, ἀναγκάζουσι, and ἄγοντες below. The collocation of μακροτέρους with ἀποτίνουσι may easily have led to the corruption ἀποτείνουσι, owing to the frequency of such expressions as μακροὺς λόγους ἀποτείνειν. For the error see Introd. § 5.

παῖδας ‐‐ κατόπισθεν . The Scholiast remarks ἐξ Ἡροδότου (VI 86) ἀπὸ τοῦ δοθέντος χρησμοῦ Γλαύκῳ τῷ Λάκωνι ὡς Ἀνδρὸς δ’ εὐόρκου γενεὴ μετόπισθεν ἀμείνων. The story of Glaucus admirably illustrates the view herein expressed; but Plato is more probably thinking of Hesiod OD. 285 (a line which is identical with that quoted from the oracle), and also perhaps of some such lines as those of Tyrtaeus 12. 29 f. καὶ τύμβος καὶ παῖδες ἐν ἀνθρώποις ἀρίσημοι | καὶ παίδων παῖδες καὶ γένος ἐξοπίσω.

εἰς πηλόν τινα κατορύττουσιν . τινα is contemptuous: ‘something which they call mud’: cf. 372 B infra and Symp. 210 D ( ἀνθρώπου τινός). The ‘mud’ is Orphic: see Abel Orphic. p. 247 and cf. Phaed. 69 C , Rep. VII 533 D, and the σκῶρ ἀείνων of Ar. Frogs 146 , with Blaydes' note. See also Rohde Psyche^{2} I p. 313 note and Dieterich Nekyia pp. 82 f. The employment of the Danaid legend in Orphic teaching is illustrated by Gorg. 493 B : cf. also Dieterich Nekyia pp. 69 f., 75.

δοξαζομένων δέ . For δέ without μέν see I 340 D note

ἄλλα δὲ οὐκ ἔχουσιν : sc. λέγειν τιμωρήματα. Adimantus means that they dissuade men from injustice merely on account of its results, ignoring τίνα ἔχει δύναμιν αὐτὸ καθ’ αὑτὸ ἐνὸν ἐν τῇ ψυχῇ (358 B). J. and C. aptly cite Theaet. 176 D , E ἀγνοοῦσι γὰρ ζημίαν ἀδικίας, ὃ δεῖ ἥκιστα ἀγνοεῖν· οὐ γάρ ἐστιν ἣν δοκοῦσιν, πληγαί τε καὶ θάνατοι, ὧν ἐνίοτε πάσχουσιν οὐδὲν ἀδικοῦντες, ἀλλ’ ἣν ἀδύνατον ἐκφυγεῖν, viz. “that by their wicked acts they become like the pattern of evil.”

ἰδίᾳ has been understood of writing in prose, but the reference is only to the representations of private persons, e.g. parents, etc.)(to poets, who were in a sense the professional teachers of Hellas: cf. X 606 C, Laws 890 A ἰδιωτῶν τε καὶ ποιητῶν, and 366 E below.

πλούτου δὲ οὐδέν and Liebhold ( Fl. Jahrb. 1888, p. 107)

κόσμου δὲ ἄλλο μὲν <ἔχοντ)> οὐδέν for τοῦτον δὲ ἄλλο μὲν οὐδέν. Neither of these proposals has any plausibility, and it is best to regard this as one of the places where we owe the right reading to Π .

Plato Republic 2.363

ed. John Burnet

Search the Perseus Catalog for:

Current edition Perseus

Commentary

Stable identifiers