Plato, Republic, ed. John Burnet, 1.348

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[348] 348a
ἤκουσας, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὅσα ἄρτι Θρασύμαχος ἀγαθὰ διῆλθεν τῷ τοῦ ἀδίκου;
ἤκουσα, ἔφη, ἀλλʼ οὐ πείθομαι.
βούλει οὖν αὐτὸν πείθωμεν, ἂν δυνώμεθά πῃ ἐξευρεῖν, ὡς οὐκ ἀληθῆ λέγει;
πῶς γὰρ οὐ βούλομαι; ἦ δʼ ὅς.
ἂν μὲν τοίνυν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἀντικατατείναντες λέγωμεν αὐτῷ λόγον παρὰ λόγον, ὅσα αὖ ἀγαθὰ ἔχει τὸ δίκαιον εἶναι, καὶ αὖθις οὗτος, καὶ ἄλλον ἡμεῖς, ἀριθμεῖν δεήσει 348b τἀγαθὰ καὶ μετρεῖν ὅσα ἑκάτεροι ἐν ἑκατέρῳ λέγομεν, καὶ ἤδη δικαστῶν τινων τῶν διακρινούντων δεησόμεθα· ἂν δὲ ὥσπερ ἄρτι ἀνομολογούμενοι πρὸς ἀλλήλους σκοπῶμεν, ἅμα αὐτοί τε δικασταὶ καὶ ῥήτορες ἐσόμεθα.
πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
ὁποτέρως οὖν σοι, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἀρέσκει.
οὕτως, ἔφη.
ἴθι δή, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Θρασύμαχε, ἀπόκριναι ἡμῖν ἐξ ἀρχῆς. τὴν τελέαν ἀδικίαν τελέας οὔσης δικαιοσύνης λυσιτελεστέραν φῂς εἶναι; 348c
πάνυ μὲν οὖν καὶ φημί, ἔφη, καὶ διʼ ἅ, εἴρηκα.
φέρε δή, τὸ τοιόνδε περὶ αὐτῶν πῶς λέγεις; τὸ μέν που ἀρετὴν αὐτοῖν καλεῖς, τὸ δὲ κακίαν;
πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
οὐκοῦν τὴν μὲν δικαιοσύνην ἀρετήν, τὴν δὲ ἀδικίαν κακίαν;
εἰκός γʼ, ἔφη, ὦ ἥδιστε, ἐπειδή γε καὶ λέγω ἀδικίαν μὲν λυσιτελεῖν, δικαιοσύνην δʼ οὔ.
ἀλλὰ τί μήν;
τοὐναντίον, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
ἦ τὴν δικαιοσύνην κακίαν;
οὔκ, ἀλλὰ πάνυ γενναίαν εὐήθειαν. 348d
τὴν ἀδικίαν ἄρα κακοήθειαν καλεῖς;
οὔκ, ἀλλʼ εὐβουλίαν, ἔφη.
ἦ καὶ φρόνιμοί σοι, ὦ Θρασύμαχε, δοκοῦσιν εἶναι καὶ ἀγαθοὶ οἱ ἄδικοι;
οἵ γε τελέως, ἔφη, οἷοί τε ἀδικεῖν, πόλεις τε καὶ ἔθνη δυνάμενοι ἀνθρώπων ὑφʼ ἑαυτοὺς ποιεῖσθαι· σὺ δὲ οἴει με ἴσως τοὺς τὰ βαλλάντια ἀποτέμνοντας λέγειν. λυσιτελεῖ μὲν οὖν, ἦ δʼ ὅς, καὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα, ἐάνπερ λανθάνῃ· ἔστι δὲ οὐκ ἄξια λόγου, ἀλλʼ ἃ νυνδὴ ἔλεγον. 348e
τοῦτο μέν, ἔφην, οὐκ ἀγνοῶ ὃ βούλει λέγειν, ἀλλὰ τόδε ἐθαύμασα, εἰ ἐν ἀρετῆς καὶ σοφίας τιθεῖς μέρει τὴν ἀδικίαν, τὴν δὲ δικαιοσύνην ἐν τοῖς ἐναντίοις.
ἀλλὰ πάνυ οὕτω τίθημι.
τοῦτο, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἤδη στερεώτερον, ὦ ἑταῖρε, καὶ οὐκέτι ῥᾴδιον ἔχειν ὅτι τις εἴπῃ.

Republic. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1905.

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Πολιτεία (Greek) (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.)

Translations (1)

Republic Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).) — 1.348 focus

[348] 348a Did you hear, said I, all the goods that Thrasymachus just now enumerated for the life of the unjust man? I heard, he said, but I am not convinced. Do you wish us then to try to persuade him, supposing we can find a way, that what he says is not true? Of course I wish it, he said. If then we oppose¹ him in a set speech enumerating in turn the advantages of being just and he replies and we rejoin, we shall have to count up and measure the goods listed in the respective speeches 348b and we shall forthwith be in need of judges to decide between us. But if, as in the preceding discussion, we come to terms with one another as to what we admit in the inquiry, we shall be ourselves both judges and pleaders. Quite so, he said. Which method do you like best? said I. This one, he said.
Come then, Thrasymachus, I said, go back to the beginning and answer us. You affirm that perfect and complete injustice is more profitable than justice that is complete. 348c I affirm it, he said, and have told you my reasons. Tell me then how you would express yourself on this point about them. You call one of them, I presume, a virtue and the other a vice? Of course. Justice the virtue and injustice the vice? It is likely,² you innocent, when I say that injustice pays and justice doesn’t pay. But what then, pray? The opposite, he replied. What! justice vice? No, but a most noble simplicity³ or goodness of heart. Then do you call injustice badness of heart? 348d No, but goodness of judgement. Do you also, Thrasymachus, regard the unjust as intelligent and good? Yes, if they are capable of complete injustice, he said, and are able to subject to themselves cities and tribes of men. But you probably suppose that I mean those who take purses. There is profit to be sure even in that sort of thing, he said, if it goes undetected. But such things are not worth taking into the account, 348e but only what I just described. I am not unaware of your meaning in that, I said; but this is what surprised me,⁴ that you should range injustice under the head of virtue and wisdom, and justice in the opposite class. Well, I do so class them, he said. That, said I, is a stiffer proposition,⁵ my friend, and if you are going as far as that it is hard to know what to answer.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

Πλάτωνος Πολιτεία . On the name, characters, and date of action of the dialogue, see Introd. §§ 1, 2, 3.

διῆλθε : i.q. διῆλθεν ὄντα or διελθὼν ἔλεξεν εἶναι (Schneider). Cf. II 363 A ἄφθονα ἔχουσι λέγειν ἀγαθὰ τοῖς ὁσίοις with note ad loc. In view of ἐν ἑκατέρῳ λέγομεν in B below, it is easy to suggest διῆλθεν <ἐν>; but the text is probably sound.

ἂν μὲν τοίνυν κτλ. The alternatives are between continuous speech and dialectic. By λόγον in παρὰ λόγον Thrasymachus' speech in 343 A ff. is meant: to this Socrates would reply, after which Thrasymachus would speak again, and finally Socrates. Thus each party would have delivered two speeches. In Athenian lawsuits there were often two speeches delivered by the accuser and two by the defendant (Meier und Schömann Attische Process p. 924), so that Plato's imagery is borrowed from the law-court, whence δικαστῶν τινῶν τῶν διακρινούντων just below. This point escaped Ast, who reads καὶ αὖθις οὗτος ἄλλον ἡμῖν (after Ficinus and Stephanus).

ἀντικατατείναντες is intransitive: cf. II 358 D κατατείνας ἐρῶ τὸν ἄδικον βίον ἐπαινῶν and 367 B: the notion (as in ξυντείνω, ξυντεταμένως and the like) is of nervous tension. The word cannot mean ‘replying to one another in set speeches’ (J. and C.). “Setting out alternative lists of advantages” (remarks Bosanquet) “was the well-known method of fable or poetry. See Book II” 361 D—362 C and 362 E— 365 A: “and compare Prodicus' Choice of Heracles (Xen. Mem. II 1) and the discussion between the Just and Unjust arguments in the Clouds of Aristophanes.”

ὁποτέρως is virtually indirect: translate ‘whichever you please, then.’ Hermann reads ποτέρως, but the text ought not to be changed either here or in Euthyd. 271 A τίς ἦν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ᾧ χθὲς ἐν Λυκείῳ διελέγου;—τίς ἦν; Ὁπότερον καὶ <*>ρωτᾷς, ὦ Κρίτων· οὐ γὰρ εἶς, ἀλλὰ δὔ ἤστην, i.e. (it depends on) which of these you are asking about etc. Cf. also <*>τις—αὐτῶν ἡ ἀρετή 353 C. In Rep. IX 578 E ἐν ποίῳ ἄν τινι καὶ ὁπόσῳ φόβῳ οἴει γενέσθαι αὐτόν and Gorg. 522 A , the ὁπόσῳ is perhaps due to the proximity of οἴει, which gives the question a certain semblance of indirectness; ὁποίῳ in Alc. I 110 C and ὁποίου infra 400 A may be similarly explained; while in Meno 74 D ἀλλὰ μή μοι οὕτως—ἀλλ’ ὅ τι ἐστὶν τοῦτο, it is casy to supply a verb of saying. Possibly (as Heindorf thinks) ὅτι (B ὃ τί) in Euthyd. 287 B is corrupt for τί, as <*>πως for πῶς in Charm. 170 C . In Lys. 212 C ὁπότερος οὖν αὐτῶν ποτέρου φίλου ἐστιν; ὁ φιλῶν τοῦ φιλουμένου—ἢ ὁ φιλούμενος τοῦ φιλοῦντος; we ought no doubt to read ὁ πότερος (with Hermann).

εἰκός γε ‐‐ τοὐναντίον . Thrasymachus' view of δικαιοσύνη is like Callicles' theory of ἀρετή in Gorg. 491 E ff. esp. 492 B τρυφὴ καὶ ἀκολασία καὶ ἐλευθερία, ἐὰν ἐπικουρίαν ἔχῃ, τοῦτ’ ἐστὶν ἀρετή τε καὶ εὐδαιμονία. The irony is clearly marked by ὦ ἥδιστε, and Hartman should not have revived Hirschig's proposal to read <οὔκουν> εἰκός γε .

ἀλλὰ τί μήν ; ‘Well, what else?’ Cf. (with J. and C.) Symp. 206 E .

πάνυ γενναίαν εὐήθειαν : ‘sublime simplicity.’ Such contempt for εὐήθεια recalls Thucydides' description of contemporary morals: cf. especially III 83. 1 καὶ τὸ εὔηθες, οὖ τὸ γενναῖον πλεῖστον μετέχει, καταγελασθὲν ἠφανίσθη.

εὐβουλία was preeminently a political virtue: cf. Alc. I 125 E πολιτείας κοινωνούντων τίνα καλεῖς ἐπιστήμην; Εὐβουλίαν ἔγωγε, Prot. 318 E , and infra IV 428 B. It is therefore fitly used by Thrasymachus to describe his theory, which is a theory of political rather than of private morality: cf. πόλεις τε—ποιεῖσθαι below.

ὑφ) ἑαυτοὺς ποιεῖσθαι . ἑαυτοῖς is found in some inferior MSS, but the accusative is also admissible. Cf. Thuc. IV 60 (cited by Schneider) εἰκὸς—αὐτοὺς τάδε πάντα πειράσασθαι ὑπὸ σφᾶς ποιεῖσθαι. In τελέως Thrasymachus recalls the τελέαν ἀδικίαν of 348 B.

σὺ δὲ οἴει ‐‐ λέγειν . Baiter (with Paris A) assigns these words to Socrates; but they come much more naturally from Thrasymachus: cf. 344 B. βαλλάντια and not βαλάντια is the spelling of A here and in VIII 552 D ( βαλλαντιοτόμοι): in IX 575 B ( βαλλαντιοτομοῦσι) the second λ is due to an early corrector. The double ‐λλ‐ has also the best MS authority in Gorg. 508 E , Symp. 190 E . See also Blaydes on Ar. Frogs 772 . For

ἦ δ’ ὅς below after ἔφη cf. Phaed. 78 A and VII 522 A.

ἤδη στερεώτερον : ‘still more stubborn.’ στερέος is like σκληρός in Theaet. 155 E σκληροὺς—καὶ ἀντιτύπους ἀνθρώπους, but stronger, suggesting castiron hardness and inflexibility.

ῥᾴδιον . See cr. n. Schneider refers to Laws 757 B τὴν δὲ ἀληθεστάτην καὶ ἀρίστην ἰσότητα οὐκέτι ῥᾴδιον παντὶ ἰδεῖν. ῥᾷον is not (I think) possible here: and a scribe might easily omit ΙΔ in ΡΑΙΔΙΟΝ. Cf. Introd. § 5.

εἰ γὰρ κτλ. Gorg. 483 C νόμῳ μὲν τοῦτο ἄδικον καὶ αἰσχρὸν λέγεται, τὸ πλέον ζητεῖν ἔχειν τῶν πολλῶν, καὶ ἀδικεῖν αὐτὸ καλοῦσιν. Dümmler ( Zur Comp. d. Pl. St. p. 13) goes so far as to assert that ὥσπερ ἄλλοι τινές is an express reference to Polus in the Gorgias; but nothing is gained by so hazardous a conjecture.

Plato Republic 1.348

ed. John Burnet

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