Plato, Republic, Paul Shorey (Translator), 6.507

Search the Perseus Catalog for:

← Previous Next →

[507] I could wish, 507a I said, that I were able to make and you to receive the payment and not merely as now the interest. But at any rate receive this interest¹ and the offspring of the good. Have a care, however, lest I deceive you unintentionally with a false reckoning of the interest. We will do our best, he said, to be on our guard. Only speak on. Yes, I said, after first coming to an understanding with you and reminding you of what has been said here before and often on other occasions.² 507b What? said he. We predicate to be³ of many beautiful things and many good things, saying of them severally that they are, and so define them in our speech. We do. And again, we speak of a self-beautiful and of a good that is only and merely good, and so, in the case of all the things that we then posited as many, we turn about and posit each as a single idea or aspect, assuming it to be a unity and call it that which each really is.⁴ It is so. And the one class of things we say can be seen but not thought, 507c while the ideas can be thought but not seen. By all means. With which of the parts of ourselves, with which of our faculties, then, do we see visible things? With sight, he said. And do we not, I said, hear audibles with hearing, and perceive all sensibles with the other senses? Surely. Have you ever observed, said I, how much the greatest expenditure the creator⁵ of the senses has lavished on the faculty of seeing and being seen?⁶ Why, no, I have not, he said. Well, look at it thus. Do hearing and voice stand in need of another medium⁷ so that the one may hear and the other be heard, 507d in the absence of which third element the one will not hear and the other not be heard? They need nothing, he said. Neither, I fancy, said I, do many others, not to say that none require anything of the sort. Or do you know of any? Not I, he said. But do you not observe that vision and the visible do have this further need? How? Though vision may be in the eyes and its possessor may try to use it, and though color be present, yet without 507e the presence of a third thing⁸ specifically and naturally adapted to this purpose, you are aware that vision will see nothing and the colors will remain invisible.⁹ What¹⁰ is this thing of which you speak? he said. The thing, I said, that you call light. You say truly, he replied.

Republic. Plato. Paul Shorey (Translator). Cambridge, MA. 1935-37.

Sponsored by Perseus Project, Tufts University.

Funding provided by The Annenberg CPB/Project.

Current edition Perseus

Republic (English) (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).)

Editions (1)

Πολιτεία Perseus (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.) — 6.507 focus

[507] 507a
βουλοίμην ἄν, εἶπον, ἐμέ τε δύνασθαι αὐτὴν ἀποδοῦναι καὶ ὑμᾶς κομίσασθαι, ἀλλὰ μὴ ὥσπερ νῦν τοὺς τόκους μόνον. τοῦτον δὲ δὴ οὖν τὸν τόκον τε καὶ ἔκγονον αὐτοῦ τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ κομίσασθε. εὐλαβεῖσθε μέντοι μή πῃ ἐξαπατήσω ὑμᾶς ἄκων, κίβδηλον ἀποδιδοὺς τὸν λόγον τοῦ τόκου.
εὐλαβησόμεθα, ἔφη, κατὰ δύναμιν· ἀλλὰ μόνον λέγε.
διομολογησάμενός γʼ ἔφην ἐγώ, καὶ ἀναμνήσας ὑμᾶς τά τʼ ἐν τοῖς ἔμπροσθεν ῥηθέντα καὶ ἄλλοτε ἤδη πολλάκις εἰρημένα. 507b
τὰ ποῖα; ἦ δʼ ὅς.
πολλὰ καλά, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ πολλὰ ἀγαθὰ καὶ ἕκαστα οὕτως εἶναί φαμέν τε καὶ διορίζομεν τῷ λόγῳ.
φαμὲν γάρ.
καὶ αὐτὸ δὴ καλὸν καὶ αὐτὸ ἀγαθόν, καὶ οὕτω περὶ πάντων ἃ τότε ὡς πολλὰ ἐτίθεμεν, πάλιν αὖ κατʼ ἰδέαν μίαν ἑκάστου ὡς μιᾶς οὔσης τιθέντες, ὃ ἔστιν ἕκαστον προσαγορεύομεν.
ἔστι ταῦτα.
καὶ τὰ μὲν δὴ ὁρᾶσθαί φαμεν, νοεῖσθαι δʼ οὔ, τὰς δʼ αὖ ἰδέας νοεῖσθαι μέν, ὁρᾶσθαι δʼ οὔ.
παντάπασι μὲν οὖν. 507c
τῷ οὖν ὁρῶμεν ἡμῶν αὐτῶν τὰ ὁρώμενα;
τῇ ὄψει, ἔφη.
οὐκοῦν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ ἀκοῇ τὰ ἀκουόμενα, καὶ ταῖς ἄλλαις αἰσθήσεσι πάντα τὰ αἰσθητά;
τί μήν;
ἆρʼ οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐννενόηκας τὸν τῶν αἰσθήσεων δημιουργὸν ὅσῳ πολυτελεστάτην τὴν τοῦ ὁρᾶν τε καὶ ὁρᾶσθαι δύναμιν ἐδημιούργησεν;
οὐ πάνυ, ἔφη.
ἀλλʼ ὧδε σκόπει. ἔστιν ὅτι προσδεῖ ἀκοῇ καὶ φωνῇ γένους ἄλλου εἰς τὸ τὴν μὲν ἀκούειν, τὴν δὲ ἀκούεσθαι, ὃ 507d ἐὰν μὴ παραγένηται τρίτον, ἡ μὲν οὐκ ἀκούσεται, ἡ δὲ οὐκ ἀκουσθήσεται;
οὐδενός, ἔφη.
οἶμαι δέ γε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, οὐδʼ ἄλλαις πολλαῖς, ἵνα μὴ εἴπω ὅτι οὐδεμιᾷ, τοιούτου προσδεῖ οὐδενός. ἢ σύ τινα ἔχεις εἰπεῖν;
οὐκ ἔγωγε, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
τὴν δὲ τῆς ὄψεως καὶ τοῦ ὁρατοῦ οὐκ ἐννοεῖς ὅτι προσδεῖται;
πῶς;
ἐνούσης που ἐν ὄμμασιν ὄψεως καὶ ἐπιχειροῦντος τοῦ ἔχοντος χρῆσθαι αὐτῇ, παρούσης δὲ χρόας ἐν αὐτοῖς, ἐὰν μὴ 507e παραγένηται γένος τρίτον ἰδίᾳ ἐπʼ αὐτὸ τοῦτο πεφυκός, οἶσθα ὅτι ἥ τε ὄψις οὐδὲν ὄψεται, τά τε χρώματα ἔσται ἀόρατα.
τίνος δὴ λέγεις, ἔφη, τούτου;
ὃ δὴ σὺ καλεῖς, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, φῶς.
ἀληθῆ, ἔφη, λέγεις.

Notes on the current edition

Republic

1. This playful interlude relieves the monotony of the argument and is a transition to the symbolism. τόκος means both interest and offspring. Cf. 555 E, Polit. 267 A, Aristoph. Clouds 34, Thesm. 845, Pindar, Ol. x. 12. the equivocation, which in other languages became a metaphor, has played a great part in the history of opinion about usury. Cf. the article Usury in Hastings’s Encyclopaedia of Relig. and Ethics.

2. Cf. 475 E f. Plato as often begins by a restatement of the theory of ideas, i.e. practically of the distinction between the concept and the objects of sense. Cf. Rep. 596 A ff., Phaedo 108 b ff.

3. The modern reader will never understand Plato from translations that talk about Being. Cf. What Plato Said, p. 605.

4. ὃ ἔστιν is technical for the reality of the ideas. Cf. Phaedo 75 B, D, 78 D, Parmen. 129 B, Symp. 211 C, Rep. 490 B, 532 A, 597 A.

5. Creator, δημιουργός, God, the gods, and nature, are all virtual synonyms in such passages.

6. Cf. Phaedr. 259 D, Tim. 45 B.

7. This is literature, not science. Plato knew that sound required a medium, Tim. 67 B. But the statement here is true enough to illustrate the thought.

8. Lit. kind of thing, γένος. Cf. 507 C-D.

9. Cf. Troland, The Mystery of Mind, p. 82:

In order that there should be vision, it is not sufficient that a physical object should exist before the eyes. there must also be a source of so-called light.

10. Plato would not have tried to explain this loose colloquial genitive, and we need not.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

τοὺς τόκους . The comparison, which is already suggested in ἀποτείσεις, ἀποδοῦναι (‘pay’ as well as ‘render’), and κομίσασθαι, culminates in the word τόκος (‘interest’ and ‘offspring’). See on γράφειν νόμους 501 A and (for a similar play on τόκος) cf. VIII 555 E and Ar. Thesm. 842 —845. κίβδηλον below is a metaphor from counterfeit coinage.

διομολογησάμενός γε . γε (‘yes,’ ‘not until’: cf. with Schneider Phaedr. 228 D δείξας γε πρῶτον κτλ.) was restored by Bekker from the best MSS. Stephanus (with Ξ etc.) read δέ.

ἐν τοῖς ἔμπροσθεν . Cf. V 475 E note

εἶναι is not of course used in its technical sense, otherwise it would be inconsistent with the end of Book V. Socrates means only that the Platonist distinguishes between two categories— τὰ πολλά, and the Ideas.

καὶ αὐτὸ δὴ κτλ. The literal meaning of the text above printed is as follows: ‘So likewise a Beautiful itself, and a Good itself and similarly about all which we formerly took’ (or ‘postulated’) ‘as many: reversing our procedure ( πάλιν αὖ), we postulate also one Idea of each, believing that there is but one, and call it the essential so-and-so.’ καὶ—ἐτίθεμεν is best explained as still under the influence of φαμέν—λόγῳ. τότε (as Schneider observes) refers ‘ad eam, quae modo facta est, multorum commemorationem’: cf. 510 B. Stallbaum is mistaken in supposing that the allusion is to V 475 E ff. Plato's meaning will appear from a single example. We postulate both πολλὰ δίκαια and also ἓν δίκαιον, viz. the ἰδέα μία δικαίου, and we call the latter ὃ ἔστιν δίκαιον: cf. Phaed. 75 B τοῦ ὃ ἔστιν ἴσον, Symp. 211 C and elsewhere. We postulate only one ἰδέα δικαίου, because we believe that there is but one: see X 597 C, D, where Plato shews why there cannot be more. For αὐτό used of the Ideas, see on IV 438 B, 438 C and V 476 A note Instead of καὶ ἰδέαν, the MSS— see cr. n.—read κατ’ ἰδέαν ( κατιδέαν Vind. F.). For the interchange of καί and κατά see Schaefer's Greg. Cor. p. 234 note 26. An unduly sloping accent is enough to account for the corruption of ΚΑῚΙΔΕΑΝ into ΚΑΤΙΔΕΑΝ (as in uncial MSS it would be written: see Thompson Gk. Palaeogr. p. 127). See also my article in Cl. Rev. XIII p. 100. Other views on the text and interpretation of this difficult passage are discussed in App. VII.

ἆρ’ οὖν κτλ. On the unique position of Sight among the senses see Phaedr. 250 D and Bonitz on Arist. Met. A 1. 980^{a} 23: cf. also Phaed. 65 B , Tim. 47 A ff., Hipp. Maior 297 E ff. It is the costliest ( πολυτελεστάτη) because it requires an additional precious or valuable element ( μὴ ἄτιμον 508 A) beyond what is necessary for the operation of the others, viz. Light: cf. Tim. 45 C , D and Arist. de An. II 7. 418^{b} 2 ff.

ἔστιν ὅ τι κτλ. Steinhart (p. 689 note 213) and others remark on Plato's error in denying that a medium is necessary in Hearing etc. Aristotle was well aware of this fact (see his de An. II 7. 419^{a} 25 ff.), and there are several indications that it was not altogether unknown to Plato. In Tim. 67 B , for example, air is regarded as in a certain sense the medium of sound. Here, however, where a scientific analysis of perception is not proposed, Plato takes his stand upon the broad fact of experience, that whereas we can hear, touch, etc. either in light or in darkness, we can see only where there is light.

οὐδ’ ἄλλαις πολλαῖς . ‘Non αἰσθήσεσι supplendum est, quippe quae non amplius tres supersint, sed δυνάμεσι vel δυνάμεων συζεύξεσι’ (Schneider). It may be added that the antecedent of ἄλλαις is the same as that of τινα and τὴν τῆς ὄψεως καὶ τοῦ ὁρατοῦ, and τὴν is certainly for τὴν δύναμιν: cf. τὴν τοῦ ὁρᾶν τε καὶ ὁρᾶσθαι δύναμιν in C. Plato is thinking quite generally of δυνάμεις τοῦ ποιεῖν τε καὶ πάσχειν: cf. Theaet. 156 A .

ἐν αὐτοῖς κτλ. If ἐν αὐτοῖς is right, αὐτοῖς must be interpreted as τοῖς ὁρωμένοις, for it is clear from 508 C ὧν ἂν τὰς χρόας τὸ ἡμερινὸν φῶς ἐπέχῃ that colour is here regarded as inherent in the object. Grammatically, however, αὐτοῖς can scarcely mean anything except τοῖς ὄμμασιν, and in my edition of 1897 I accordingly proposed to read ἐν αὐτοῖς <τοῖς ὁρωμένοις>. Ficinus translates praesente item colore, omitting ἐν αὐτοῖς altogether. For other views see App. VIII.

τίνος ‐‐ τούτου ; The genitive has been variously explained as (1) dependent on γένος (Schneider), (2) in agreement with παραγενομένου understood (Stallbaum, Campbell), (3) like ἵππων in τί δὲ ἵππων οἴει; V 459 B (Jowett). (2) is in my opinion grammatically impossible. For (3) cf. V 470 A note Jowett's view is perhaps possible, but we should have expected simply τί δὴ λέγεις—τοῦτο; Schneider's explanation (‘Pray what is this whose γένος you mention?’) is, I think, the least unsatisfactory. Perhaps we should read δεῖν for δή .

ὃ δὴ σὺ καλεῖς . Herwerden needlessly writes ὃ δὴ καὶ σὺ καλεῖς.

οὐ σμικρᾷ κτλ. ἰδέα, ‘kind,’ ‘class,’ is here a synonym for γένος as in Theaet. 184 D , Pol. 289 B . The dative expresses the ‘amount of difference’ after the comparative τιμιωτέρῳ (‘more precious:’ cf. πολυτελεστάτην in 507 C). Cf. II 373 E and IX 579 C τοῖς τοιούτοις κακοῖς πλείω καρποῦται with note ad loc.

Plato Republic 6.507

Paul Shorey (Translator)

Search the Perseus Catalog for:

Current edition Perseus

Notes on the current edition

Commentary

Stable identifiers