Plato, Republic, Paul Shorey (Translator), 3.394

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[394] and when he had thus spoken the others were of reverent mind and approved, but Agamemnon was angry and bade him depart and not come again lest the scepter and the fillets of the god should not avail him. And ere his daughter should be released, he said, she would grow old in Argos with himself, and he ordered him to be off and not vex him if he wished to get home safe. 394a And the old man on hearing this was frightened and departed in silence, and having gone apart from the camp he prayed at length to Apollo, invoking the appellations of the god, and reminding him of and asking requital for any of his gifts that had found favor whether in the building of temples or the sacrifice of victims. In return for these things he prayed that the Achaeans should suffer for his tears by the god’s shafts. It is in this way, my dear fellow, I said, that 394b without imitation simple narration results. I understand, he said.
Understand then, said I, that the opposite of this arises when one removes the words of the poet between and leaves the alternation of speeches. This too I understand, he said, —it is what happens in tragedy. You have conceived me most rightly, I said, and now I think I can make plain to you what I was unable to before, that there is one kind of poetry and tale-telling which works wholly through imitation, 394c as you remarked, tragedy and comedy; and another which employs the recital of the poet himself, best exemplified, I presume, in the dithyramb¹; and there is again that which employs both, in epic poetry and in many other places, if you apprehend me. I understand now, he said, what you then meant. Recall then also the preceding statement that we were done with the what of speech and still had to consider the ’how.’ I remember. 394d What I meant then was just this, that we must reach a decision whether we are to suffer our poets to narrate as imitators or in part as imitators and in part not, and what sort of things in each case, or not allow them to imitate² at all. I divine, he said, that you are considering whether we shall admit tragedy and comedy into our city or not. Perhaps, said I, and perhaps even more than that.³ For I certainly do not yet know myself, but whithersoever the wind, as it were, of the argument blows,⁴ there lies our course. 394e Well said, he replied. This then, Adeimantus, is the point we must keep in view, do we wish our guardians to be good mimics or not? Or is this also a consequence of what we said before, that each one could practise well only one pursuit and not many, but if he attempted the latter, dabbling in many things, he would fail of distinction in all? Of course it is. And does not the same rule hold for imitation, that the same man is not able to imitate many things well as he can one? No, he is not.

Republic. Plato. Paul Shorey (Translator). Cambridge, MA. 1935-37.

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Current edition Perseus

Republic (English) (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).)

Editions (1)

Πολιτεία Perseus (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.) — 3.394 focus

[394] ταῦτα δὲ εἰπόντος αὐτοῦ οἱ μὲν ἄλλοι ἐσέβοντο καὶ συνῄνουν, ὁ δὲ Ἀγαμέμνων ἠγρίαινεν ἐντελλόμενος νῦν τε ἀπιέναι καὶ αὖθις μὴ ἐλθεῖν, μὴ αὐτῷ τό τε σκῆπτρον καὶ τὰ τοῦ θεοῦ στέμματα οὐκ ἐπαρκέσοι· πρὶν δὲ λυθῆναι αὐτοῦ τὴν θυγατέρα, ἐν Ἄργει ἔφη γηράσειν μετὰ οὗ· ἀπιέναι δʼ ἐκέλευεν καὶ μὴ ἐρεθίζειν, 394a >ἵνα σῶς οἴκαδε ἔλθοι. ὁ δὲ πρεσβύτης ἀκούσας ἔδεισέν τε καὶ ἀπῄει σιγῇ, ἀποχωρήσας δὲ ἐκ τοῦ στρατοπέδου πολλὰ τῷ Ἀπόλλωνι ηὔχετο, τάς τε ἐπωνυμίας τοῦ θεοῦ ἀνακαλῶν καὶ ὑπομιμνῄσκων καὶ ἀπαιτῶν, εἴ τι πώποτε ἢ ἐν ναῶν οἰκοδομήσεσιν ἢ ἐν ἱερῶν θυσίαις κεχαρισμένον δωρήσαιτο· ὧν δὴ χάριν κατηύχετο τεῖσαι τοὺς Ἀχαιοὺς τὰ ἃ δάκρυα τοῖς ἐκείνου βέλεσιν. οὕτως, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ ἑταῖρε, ἄνευ 394b μιμήσεως ἁπλῆ διήγησις γίγνεται.
μανθάνω, ἔφη.
μάνθανε τοίνυν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὅτι ταύτης αὖ ἐναντία γίγνεται, ὅταν τις τὰ τοῦ ποιητοῦ τὰ μεταξὺ τῶν ῥήσεων ἐξαιρῶν τὰ ἀμοιβαῖα καταλείπῃ.
καὶ τοῦτο, ἔφη, μανθάνω, ὅτι ἔστιν τὸ περὶ τὰς τραγῳδίας τοιοῦτον.
ὀρθότατα, ἔφην, ὑπέλαβες, καὶ οἶμαί σοι ἤδη δηλοῦν ὃ ἔμπροσθεν οὐχ οἷός τʼ ἦ, ὅτι τῆς ποιήσεώς τε καὶ μυθολογίας 394c ἡ μὲν διὰ μιμήσεως ὅλη ἐστίν, ὥσπερ σὺ λέγεις, τραγῳδία τε καὶ κωμῳδία, ἡ δὲ διʼ ἀπαγγελίας αὐτοῦ τοῦ ποιητοῦ—εὕροις δʼ ἂν αὐτὴν μάλιστά που ἐν διθυράμβοις— ἡ δʼ αὖ διʼ ἀμφοτέρων ἔν τε τῇ τῶν ἐπῶν ποιήσει, πολλαχοῦ δὲ καὶ ἄλλοθι, εἴ μοι μανθάνεις.
ἀλλὰ συνίημι, ἔφη, ὃ τότε ἐβούλου λέγειν.
καὶ τὸ πρὸ τούτου δὴ ἀναμνήσθητι, ὅτι ἔφαμεν ἃ μὲν λεκτέον ἤδη εἰρῆσθαι, ὡς δὲ λεκτέον ἔτι σκεπτέον εἶναι.
ἀλλὰ μέμνημαι. 394d
τοῦτο τοίνυν αὐτὸ ἦν ὃ ἔλεγον, ὅτι χρείη διομολογήσασθαι πότερον ἐάσομεν τοὺς ποιητὰς μιμουμένους ἡμῖν τὰς διηγήσεις ποιεῖσθαι ἢ τὰ μὲν μιμουμένους, τὰ δὲ μή, καὶ ὁποῖα ἑκάτερα, ἢ οὐδὲ μιμεῖσθαι.
μαντεύομαι, ἔφη, σκοπεῖσθαί σε εἴτε παραδεξόμεθα τραγῳδίαν τε καὶ κωμῳδίαν εἰς τὴν πόλιν, εἴτε καὶ οὔ.
ἴσως, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἴσως δὲ καὶ πλείω ἔτι τούτων· οὐ γὰρ δὴ ἔγωγέ πω οἶδα, ἀλλʼ ὅπῃ ἂν ὁ λόγος ὥσπερ πνεῦμα φέρῃ, ταύτῃ ἰτέον.
καὶ καλῶς γʼ, ἔφη, λέγεις. 394e
τόδε τοίνυν, ὦ Ἀδείμαντε, ἄθρει, πότερον μιμητικοὺς ἡμῖν δεῖ εἶναι τοὺς φύλακας ἢ οὔ· ἢ καὶ τοῦτο τοῖς ἔμπροσθεν ἕπεται, ὅτι εἷς ἕκαστος ἓν μὲν ἂν ἐπιτήδευμα καλῶς ἐπιτηδεύοι, πολλὰ δʼ οὔ, ἀλλʼ εἰ τοῦτο ἐπιχειροῖ, πολλῶν ἐφαπτόμενος πάντων ἀποτυγχάνοι ἄν, ὥστʼ εἶναί που ἐλλόγιμος;
τί δʼ οὐ μέλλει;
οὐκοῦν καὶ περὶ μιμήσεως ὁ αὐτὸς λόγος, ὅτι πολλὰ ὁ αὐτὸς μιμεῖσθαι εὖ ὥσπερ ἓν οὐ δυνατός;
οὐ γὰρ οὖν.

Notes on the current edition

Republic

1. The dithyramb was technically a poem in honor of Bacchus. For its more or less conjectural history cf. Pickard-Cambridge, Dithyramb, Tragedy, and Comedy. Here, however, it is used broadly to designate the type of elaborate Greek lyric which like the odes of Pindar and Bacchylides narrates a myth or legend with little if any dialogue.

2. Again in the special limited sense.

3. This seems to imply that Plato already had in mind the extension of the discussion in the tenth book to the whole question of the moral effect of poetry and art.

4. Cf. Theaetetus 172 D. But it is very naive to suppose that the sequence of Plato’s argument is not carefully planned in his own mind. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, p. 5.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

ἐν ναῶν οἰκοδομήσεσιν shews that Plato understood Homer's ἔρεψα ( εἴ ποτέ τοι χαρίεντ’ ἐπὶ νηὸν ἔρεψα) of building. According to Leaf, ἔρεψα seems to denote the most primitive form of temple —“a mere roof to protect the image of a god standing in a grove.”

τεῖσαι ‐‐ βέλεσιν . Ἀχαιούς is of course the subject to τεῖσαι (‘pay for,’ ‘expiate’): in Homer it is τίσειαν Δαναοὶ ἐμὰ δάκρυα σοῖσι βέλεσσιν. The translation ‘that he would avenge his tears upon the Achaeans’ (D. and V.) is wrong. ἅ is apparently a solitary instance of ὅς=‘suus’ in Attic prose (Kühner-Blass l.c. I 1, p. 602). Plato chooses the word because it expresses Homer's ἐμά briefly and neatly, rather than from any conscious desire to make the paraphrase archaic.

τραγῳδίας . Adimantus quotes a single concrete instance—‘tragedies’—to shew that he now apprehends the meaning of μίμησις. Socrates, out of politeness and because he wishes to make progress, interprets this as a recognition of the imitative character of Tragedy and Comedy in general ( ὥσπερ σὺ λέγεις τραγῳδία τε καὶ κωμῳδία), as in point of fact it virtually is. ὥσπερ σὺ λέγεις is not true in the beggarly literal sense of λέγειν, but it is sufficiently so for polite conversation. To insert—with Herwerden and Hartman— τε καὶ κωμῳδίας after τραγῳδίας seems to me unnecessary and pedantic.

εὕροις δ) ἂν ‐‐ διθυράμβοις . The dithyramb was at first purely narrative or nearly so; it afterwards became mimetic (Arist. Probl. XIX 15. 918^{b} 19). Only one of Pindar's dithyrambic fragments appears to be ‘mimetic’ ( Frag. 74). On the growth and decline of the Dithyramb see Smyth Greek Melic Poets pp. xliii—lviii.

τε ‐‐ δὲ καί . II 367 C note

εἴ μοι μανθάνεις : ‘if I can make you understand,’ with reference to μανθάνω in 392 C, 394 B, C. Heindorf's εἴ μου μανθάνεις (as in Phil. 51 C ) is attractive, but the corruption is not easy to explain, and the MS reading is sufficiently defended by I 343 A ὅς γε αὐτῇ οὐδὲ πρόβατα—γιγνώσκεις (so also Hartman).

τοῦτο ‐‐ αὐτό refers to ὅτι χρείη— μιμεῖσθαι, and ἔλεγον is ‘was saying’ i.e. ‘was trying to say,’ viz. when I digressed.

εἴτε παραδεξόμεθα κτλ. Krohn ( Pl. St. p. 13) declares this passage to be inconsistent with II 373 B, where ὑποκριταί, χορευταί, ἐργολάβοι are admitted. He forgets or ignores the fact that in § 373 Plato is describing the τρυφῶσα πόλις, which he is now engaged in ‘purging’ (399 E). See II 372 D note

ἴσως δὲ ‐‐ τούτων . In this remark J. and C. find “an anticipation of the condemnation of epic poetry in Book X.” I cannot see that it does more than prepare the way for ἀλλ’ ὅπῃ ἂν—ἰτέον. See on X 595 A.

πότερον μιμητικοὺς κτλ. The question is not ‘Are our guardians to become dramatic poets?’ but ‘Are they to have the imitative habit of mind?’ The answer is in the negative, and the drama is banished because it fosters this habit in spectators. Cf. 395 D note

ὅτι ‐‐ πολλὰ δ) οὔ explains τοῖς ἔμπροσθεν, as Hartman points out, and not τοῦτο, as D. and V. translate. ἔμπροσθεν refers to II 370 B.

πολλῶν κτλ. suggests, perhaps intentionally, πόλλ’ ἠπίστατο ἔργα, κακῶς δ’ ἠπίστατο πάντα. The words ὥστ’ — ἐλλόγιμος—equivalent to a neuter accusative—are undeservedly cancelled by Herwerden and Hartman. Translate ‘he will fail in all of them to attain creditable distinction’: cf. the adverb κακῶς in κακῶς δ’ ἠπίστατο πάντα.

οὐκοῦν κτλ. The reasoning is a fortiori: if two or more departments of merely imitative art cannot be represented by the same person, still less can imitation be combined with any serious pursuit ( σχολῇ ἄρα κτλ.).

Plato Republic 3.394

Paul Shorey (Translator)

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