[343]
343a
When we had come to this point in the discussion and it was apparent to everybody that his formula of justice had suffered a reversal of form, Thrasymachus, instead of replying, 1 said, Tell me, Socrates, have you got a nurse? What do you mean? said I. Why didn’t you answer me instead of asking such a question? Because, he said, she lets her little snotty run about drivelling 2 and doesn’t wipe your face clean, though you need it badly, if she can’t get you to know 3 the difference between the shepherd and the sheep. And what, pray, makes you think that? said I. Because you think that the shepherds 343b and the neat-herds are considering the good of the sheep and the cattle and fatten and tend them with anything else in view than the good of their masters and themselves; and by the same token you seem to suppose that the rulers in our cities, I mean the real rulers, 4 differ at all in their thoughts of the governed from a man’s attitude towards his sheep 5 or that they think of anything else night and day than 343c the sources of their own profit. And you are so far out 6 concerning the just and justice and the unjust and injustice that you don’t know that justice and the just are literally 7 the other fellow’s good 8 —the advantage of the stronger and the ruler, but a detriment that is all his own of the subject who obeys and serves; while injustice is the contrary and rules those who are simple in every sense of the word and just, and they being thus ruled do what is for his advantage who is the stronger and make him happy 343d in serving him, but themselves by no manner of means. And you must look at the matter, my simple-minded Socrates, in this way: that the just man always comes out at a disadvantage in his relation with the unjust. To begin with, in their business dealings in any joint undertaking of the two you will never find that the just man has the advantage over the unjust at the dissolution of the partnership but that he always has the worst of it. Then again, in their relations with the state, if there are direct taxes or contributions to be paid, the just man contributes more from an equal estate and the other less, and when there is a distribution 343e the one gains much and the other nothing. And so when each holds office, apart from any other loss the just man must count on his own affairs 9 falling into disorder through neglect, while because of his justice makes no profit from the state, and thereto he will displease his friends and his acquaintances by his unwillingness to serve them unjustly. But to the unjust man all the opposite advantages accrue.
When we had come to this point in the discussion and it was apparent to everybody that his formula of justice had suffered a reversal of form, Thrasymachus, instead of replying, 1 said, Tell me, Socrates, have you got a nurse? What do you mean? said I. Why didn’t you answer me instead of asking such a question? Because, he said, she lets her little snotty run about drivelling 2 and doesn’t wipe your face clean, though you need it badly, if she can’t get you to know 3 the difference between the shepherd and the sheep. And what, pray, makes you think that? said I. Because you think that the shepherds 343b and the neat-herds are considering the good of the sheep and the cattle and fatten and tend them with anything else in view than the good of their masters and themselves; and by the same token you seem to suppose that the rulers in our cities, I mean the real rulers, 4 differ at all in their thoughts of the governed from a man’s attitude towards his sheep 5 or that they think of anything else night and day than 343c the sources of their own profit. And you are so far out 6 concerning the just and justice and the unjust and injustice that you don’t know that justice and the just are literally 7 the other fellow’s good 8 —the advantage of the stronger and the ruler, but a detriment that is all his own of the subject who obeys and serves; while injustice is the contrary and rules those who are simple in every sense of the word and just, and they being thus ruled do what is for his advantage who is the stronger and make him happy 343d in serving him, but themselves by no manner of means. And you must look at the matter, my simple-minded Socrates, in this way: that the just man always comes out at a disadvantage in his relation with the unjust. To begin with, in their business dealings in any joint undertaking of the two you will never find that the just man has the advantage over the unjust at the dissolution of the partnership but that he always has the worst of it. Then again, in their relations with the state, if there are direct taxes or contributions to be paid, the just man contributes more from an equal estate and the other less, and when there is a distribution 343e the one gains much and the other nothing. And so when each holds office, apart from any other loss the just man must count on his own affairs 9 falling into disorder through neglect, while because of his justice makes no profit from the state, and thereto he will displease his friends and his acquaintances by his unwillingness to serve them unjustly. But to the unjust man all the opposite advantages accrue.
Republic. Plato. Paul Shorey (Translator). Cambridge, MA. 1935-37.
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