Plato, Protagoras, ed. John Burnet, 361

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[361]

ΣΩ.

οἶδα γὰρ ὅτι τούτου φανεροῦ 361 361a γενομένου μάλιστʼ ἂν κατάδηλον γένοιτο ἐκεῖνο περὶ οὗ ἐγώ τε καὶ σὺ μακρὸν λόγον ἑκάτερος ἀπετείναμεν, ἐγὼ μὲν λέγων ὡς οὐ διδακτὸν ἀρετή, σὺ δʼ ὡς διδακτόν. καί μοι δοκεῖ ἡμῶν ἡ ἄρτι ἔξοδος τῶν λόγων ὥσπερ ἄνθρωπος κατηγορεῖν τε καὶ καταγελᾶν, καὶ εἰ φωνὴν λάβοι, εἰπεῖν ἂν ὅτι ἄτοποί γʼ ἐστέ, ὦ Σώκρατές τε καὶ Πρωταγόρα· σὺ μὲν λέγων ὅτι οὐ διδακτόν ἐστιν ἀρετὴ ἐν τοῖς ἔμπροσθεν, νῦν σεαυτῷ τἀναντία 361b σπεύδεις, ἐπιχειρῶν ἀποδεῖξαι ὡς πάντα χρήματά ἐστιν ἐπιστήμη, καὶ ἡ δικαιοσύνη καὶ σωφροσύνη καὶ ἡ ἀνδρεία, ᾧ τρόπῳ μάλιστʼ ἂν διδακτὸν φανείη ἡ ἀρετή. εἰ μὲν γὰρ ἄλλο τι ἦν ἢ ἐπιστήμη ἡ ἀρετή, ὥσπερ Πρωταγόρας ἐπεχείρει λέγειν, σαφῶς οὐκ ἂν ἦν διδακτόν· νῦν δὲ εἰ φανήσεται ἐπιστήμη ὅλον, ὡς σὺ σπεύδεις, ὦ Σώκρατες, θαυμάσιον ἔσται μὴ διδακτὸν ὄν. Πρωταγόρας δʼ αὖ διδακτὸν τότε ὑποθέμενος, νῦν τοὐναντίον ἔοικεν σπεύδοντι ὀλίγου πάντα 361c μᾶλλον φανῆναι αὐτὸ ἢ ἐπιστήμην· καὶ οὕτως ἂν ἥκιστα εἴη διδακτόν. ἐγὼ οὖν, ὦ Πρωταγόρα, πάντα ταῦτα καθορῶν ἄνω κάτω ταραττόμενα δεινῶς, πᾶσαν προθυμίαν ἔχω καταφανῆ αὐτὰ γενέσθαι, καὶ βουλοίμην ἂν ταῦτα διεξελθόντας ἡμᾶς ἐξελθεῖν καὶ ἐπὶ τὴν ἀρετὴν ὅτι ἔστιν, καὶ πάλιν ἐπισκέψασθαι περὶ αὐτοῦ εἴτε διδακτὸν εἴτε μὴ διδακτόν, μὴ πολλάκις ἡμᾶς ὁ Ἐπιμηθεὺς ἐκεῖνος καὶ ἐν τῇ σκέψει 361d σφήλῃ ἐξαπατήσας, ὥσπερ καὶ ἐν τῇ διανομῇ ἠμέλησεν ἡμῶν, ὡς φῂς σύ. ἤρεσεν οὖν μοι καὶ ἐν τῷ μύθῳ ὁ Προμηθεὺς μᾶλλον τοῦ Ἐπιμηθέως· ᾧ χρώμενος ἐγὼ καὶ προμηθούμενος ὑπὲρ τοῦ βίου τοῦ ἐμαυτοῦ παντὸς πάντα ταῦτα πραγματεύομαι, καὶ εἰ σὺ ἐθέλοις, ὅπερ καὶ κατʼ ἀρχὰς ἔλεγον, μετὰ σοῦ ἂν ἥδιστα ταῦτα συνδιασκοποίην.
καὶ ὁ Πρωταγόρας, ἐγὼ μέν, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἐπαινῶ σου τὴν προθυμίαν καὶ τὴν διέξοδον τῶν λόγων. καὶ γὰρ οὔτε 361e τἆλλα οἶμαι κακὸς εἶναι ἄνθρωπος, φθονερός τε ἥκιστʼ ἀνθρώπων, ἐπεὶ καὶ περὶ σοῦ πρὸς πολλοὺς δὴ εἴρηκα ὅτι ὧν ἐντυγχάνω πολὺ μάλιστα ἄγαμαι σέ, τῶν μὲν τηλικούτων καὶ πάνυ· καὶ λέγω γε ὅτι οὐκ ἂν θαυμάζοιμι εἰ τῶν ἐλλογίμων γένοιο ἀνδρῶν ἐπὶ σοφίᾳ. καὶ περὶ τούτων δὲ εἰς αὖθις, ὅταν βούλῃ, διέξιμεν· νῦν δʼ ὥρα ἤδη καὶ ἐπʼ ἄλλο τι τρέπεσθαι.

Protagoras. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1903.

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Current edition Perseus

Πρωταγόρας (Greek) (Platonis Opera, Tomus III: Tetralogia V-VII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1903.)

Translations (1)

Protagoras Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 2. Lamb, W.R.M., translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1924 (printing).) — 361 focus

361a

Soc.

For I know that, were it once made plain, that other question on which you and I have argued at such length on either side—you maintaining and I denying that virtue can be taught—would be cleared up satisfactorily. Our discussion, in its present result, seems to me as though it accused and mocked us like some human person; if it were given a voice it would say: What strange creatures you are, Socrates and Protagoras! You on the one hand, after having said at first that virtue cannot be taught, 361b are now hot in opposition to yourself, endeavoring to prove that all things are knowledge—justice, temperance, and courage—which is the best way to make virtue appear teachable: for if virtue were anything else than knowledge, as Protagoras tried to make out, obviously it would not be teachable; but if as a matter of fact it turns out to be entirely knowledge, as you urge, Socrates, I shall be surprised if it is not teachable. Protagoras, on the other hand, though at first he claimed that it was teachable, 361c now seems as eager for the opposite, declaring that it has been found to be almost anything but knowledge, which would make it quite unteachable! Now I, Protagoras, observing the extraordinary tangle into which we have managed to get the whole matter, am most anxious to have it thoroughly cleared up. And I should like to work our way through it until at last we reach what virtue is, and then go back and consider whether it is teachable or not, lest perchance your Epimetheus beguile and trip us up in our investigation 361d as he overlooked us in your account of his distribution.¹ I like the Prometheus of your fable better than the Epimetheus; for he is of use to me, and I take Promethean thought continually for my own life when I am occupied with all these questions; so, with your consent, as I said at the beginning, I should be delighted to have your aid in the inquiry.
I approve your zeal, Socrates, said Protagoras, and the way you develop your arguments; 361e for I think I am not ill-natured, and I am the last person on earth to be envious. Indeed I have told many people how I regard you—as the man I admire far above any that I meet, and as quite an exception to men of your age; and I say I should not be surprised if you won high repute for wisdom. We shall pursue the subject on some other occasion, at your pleasure: for the present, 362a it is time to turn to another affair.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Protagoras (Plato. Platonis Protagoras. Adam, James; Adam, Adela Marion, editors. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1921.) focus

πάντα χρήματα : exaggeration—as if Socrates held ἐπιστήμη to be the ἀρχή of the universe and said ἐπιστήμη πάντα as Heraclitus might say πῦρ πάντα .

ὅλον : i.e. ἡ ἀρετή —the gender is like αὐτό in line 3. Sauppe cites Meno, 79B ἐμοῦ δεηθέντος ὅλον εἰπεῖν τὴν ἀρετήν.

ἔοικεν σπεύδοντι : a frequent usage in Plato; see on Apol. 27A ἔοικεν γὰρ—διαπειρωμένῳ.

ἄνω κάτω : see on 356D above.

ἐξελθεῖν—ἐπὶ . There is a slight hint of military metaphor: ‘fare forth against virtue also to see what she is’, ‘also attack the question what is virtue’: cf. Rep. II. 374A ὃ ( στρατόπεδον ) ἐξελθὸν—διαμαχεῖται τοῖς ἐπιοῦσιν : cf. the similar use of ἰέναι ἐπί in Rep. v. 473C ἐπ’ αὐτὸ δή, ἧν δ’ ἐγώ, εἶμι ὃ τῷ μεγίστῳ προσεικάζομεν κύματι . Here ἐξ‐ is appropriate, because the first campaign is as it were ended ( ταῦτα διεξελθόντας ): it is moreover natural to retain it, on account of the tendency noted on 311A A later hand in T has ἐλθεῖν , but the MSS. reading is unobjectionable, nor is there any need to read διελθεῖν or διεξελθεῖν τὴν ἀρετήν as Kroschel suggests. For the sentiment cf. Meno, 100B τὸ δὲ σαφὲς περὶ αὐτοῦ εἰσόμεθα τότε, ὅταν πρὶν ᾥτινι τρόπῳ τοῖς ἀνθπώροις ραπαγίγνεται ἀπετή, ρπότεπον ἐριχειπήσωμεν αὐτὸ καθ’ αὑτὸ ζητεῖν τί ποτ’ ἕστιν ἀρετή .

ἐπισκέψασθαι περὶ αὐτοῦ : Siebeck (in the treatise cited on p. 203) here and in 361E εἰσαῦθις—διέξιμεν finds a promise of the Meno and the Gorgias.

μἡ πολλάκις : ne forte, as often in Plato. What often happens may happen in a future case: so Lucretius uses ‘saepe’ for ‘ut saepe fit’.

Προμηθεὺς—προμηθούμενος . Puns on proper names are frequent in Plato: see Riddell's Digest of Idioms, § 323.

κατ’ ἀρχάς , viz. 348C ff., 320B

οὔτε—τε : see on 309B

ώ=ν ἐντυγχάνω : a somewhat rare attraction, since in the unattracted form the relative would be in the dative and not in the accusative case: cf. Theaet. 144A ὧν δὴ πώποτε ἐνέτυχον— καὶ πάνυ πολλοῖς πεπλησίακα—οὐδένα πω ἠ?σθόμην κτλ., where Wohlrab cites also Gorg. 509A .

τηλικούτων : Socrates was about 36 at the date of action of the Protagoras.

Plato Protagoras 361

ed. John Burnet

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