Plato, Protagoras, ed. John Burnet, 341

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[341]

ΣΩ.

καὶ ἐγὼ εἶπον· νὴ τὸν Δία, εἰς καιρόν γε παρατετύχηκεν ἡμῖν ἐν τοῖς λόγοις Πρόδικος ὅδε. κινδυνεύει γάρ τοι, ὦ 341 341a Πρωταγόρα, ἡ Προδίκου σοφία θεία τις εἶναι πάλαι, ἤτοι ἀπὸ Σιμωνίδου ἀρξαμένη, ἢ καὶ ἔτι παλαιοτέρα. σὺ δὲ ἄλλων πολλῶν ἔμπειρος ὢν ταύτης ἄπειρος εἶναι φαίνῃ, οὐχ ὥσπερ ἐγὼ ἔμπειρος διὰ τὸ μαθητὴς εἶναι Προδίκου τουτουΐ· καὶ νῦν μοι δοκεῖς οὐ μανθάνειν ὅτι καὶ τὸ χαλεπὸν τοῦτο ἴσως οὐχ οὕτως Σιμωνίδης ὑπελάμβανεν ὥσπερ σὺ ὑπολαμβάνεις, ἀλλʼ ὥσπερ περὶ τοῦ δεινοῦ Πρόδικός με οὑτοσὶ νουθετεῖ ἑκάστοτε, ὅταν ἐπαινῶν ἐγὼ ἢ σὲ ἢ ἄλλον τινὰ λέγω ὅτι Πρωταγόρας σοφὸς καὶ δεινός ἐστιν ἀνήρ, ἐρωτᾷ 341b εἰ οὐκ αἰσχύνομαι τἀγαθὰ δεινὰ καλῶν. τὸ γὰρ δεινόν, φησίν, κακόν ἐστιν· οὐδεὶς γοῦν λέγει ἑκάστοτε δεινοῦ πλούτου οὐδὲ δεινῆς εἰρήνης οὐδὲ δεινῆς ὑγιείας, ἀλλὰ δεινῆς νόσου καὶ δεινοῦ πολέμου καὶ δεινῆς πενίας, ὡς τοῦ δεινοῦ κακοῦ ὄντος. ἴσως οὖν καὶ τὸ χαλεπὸν αὖ οἱ Κεῖοι καὶ ὁ Σιμωνίδης ἢ κακὸν ὑπολαμβάνουσι ἢ ἄλλο τι ὃ σὺ οὐ μανθάνεις· ἐρώμεθα οὖν πρόδικον—δίκαιον γὰρ τὴν Σιμωνίδου φωνὴν τοῦτον ἐρωτᾶν—τί ἔλεγεν, ὦ Πρόδικε, τὸ 341c χαλεπὸν Σιμωνίδης;
κακόν, ἔφη.
διὰ ταῦτʼ ἄρα καὶ μέμφεται, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Πρόδικε, τὸν Πιττακὸν λέγοντα

χαλεπὸν ἐσθλὸν ἔμμεναι

, ὥσπερ ἂν εἰ ἤκουεν αὐτοῦ λέγοντος ὅτι ἐστὶν κακὸν

ἐσθλὸν ἔμμεναι

.
ἀλλὰ τί οἴει, ἔφη, λέγειν, ὦ Σώκρατες, Σιμωνίδην ἄλλο ἢ τοῦτο, καὶ ὀνειδίζειν τῷ Πιττακῷ ὅτι τὰ ὀνόματα οὐκ ἠπίστατο ὀρθῶς διαιρεῖν ἅτε Λέσβιος ὢν καὶ ἐν φωνῇ βαρβάρῳ τεθραμμένος;
ἀκούεις δή, ἔφην ἐγώ, ὦ Πρωταγόρα, Προδίκου τοῦδε. 341d ἔχεις τι πρὸς ταῦτα λέγειν;
καὶ ὁ Πρωταγόρας, πολλοῦ γε δεῖ, ἔφη, οὕτως ἔχειν, ὦ Πρόδικε· ἀλλʼ ἐγὼ εὖ οἶδʼ ὅτι καὶ Σιμωνίδης τὸ χαλεπὸν ἔλεγεν ὅπερ ἡμεῖς οἱ ἄλλοι, οὐ τὸ κακόν, ἀλλʼ ὃ ἂν μὴ ῥᾴδιον ᾖ ἀλλὰ διὰ πολλῶν πραγμάτων γίγνηται.
ἀλλὰ καὶ ἐγὼ οἶμαι, ἔφην, ὦ Πρωταγόρα, τοῦτο λέγειν Σιμωνίδην, καὶ Πρόδικόν γε τόνδε εἰδέναι, ἀλλὰ παίζειν καὶ σοῦ δοκεῖν ἀποπειρᾶσθαι εἰ οἷός τʼ ἔσῃ τῷ σαυτοῦ λόγῳ βοηθεῖν. ἐπεὶ ὅτι γε Σιμωνίδης οὐ λέγει τὸ χαλεπὸν 341e κακόν, μέγα τεκμήριόν ἐστιν εὐθὺς τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο ῥῆμα· λέγει γὰρ ὅτι—

θεὸς ἂν μόνος τοῦτʼ ἔχοι γέρας,

Simonides Fr. 37.1.14 οὐ δήπου τοῦτό γε λέγων, κακὸν

ἐσθλὸν ἔμμεναι

, εἶτα τὸν θεόν φησιν μόνον τοῦτο ἂν ἔχειν καὶ τῷ θεῷ τοῦτο γέρας ἀπένειμε μόνῳ· ἀκόλαστον γὰρ ἄν τινα λέγοι Σιμωνίδην ὁ Πρόδικος καὶ οὐδαμῶς Κεῖον.

Protagoras. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1903.

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Current edition Perseus

Πρωταγόρας (Greek) (Platonis Opera, Tomus III: Tetralogia V-VII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1903.)

Translations (1)

Protagoras Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 2. Lamb, W.R.M., translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1924 (printing).) — 341 focus

Soc.

Then I remarked: Upon my word, how opportunely it has happened that Prodicus is here to join in our discussion! For it is very likely, Protagoras, that Prodicus’ wisdom is a gift of long ago from heaven, 341a beginning either in the time of Simonides or even earlier. But you, so skilled in many other things, appear to be unskilled in this, and lack the skill that I can boast because I am a disciple of the great Prodicus; and so now I find you do not understand that perhaps Simonides did not conceive hard in the way that you conceive it—just as, in the case of awful, Prodicus here corrects me each time I use the word in praising you or someone else; when I say, for instance, that 341b Protagoras is an awfully wise man, he asks if I am not ashamed to call good things awful. For awful, he says, is bad; thus no one on this or that occasion speaks of awful wealth or awful peace or awful health, but we say awful disease, awful war or awful poverty, taking awful to be bad. So perhaps hard also was intended by the Ceans and Simonides as either bad or something else that you do not understand: let us therefore ask Prodicus, for it is fair to question him on the dialect of Simonides. 341c What did Simonides mean, Prodicus, by hard?
Bad, he replied.
Then it is on this account, Prodicus, I said, that he blames Pittacus for saying it is hard to be good, just as though he heard him say it is bad to be good.
Well, Socrates, he said, what else do you think Simonides meant? Was he not reproaching Pittacus for not knowing how to distinguish words correctly, Lesbian as he was, and nurtured in a foreign tongue?
You hear, Protagoras, I said, 341d what Prodicus here suggests: have you anything to say upon it?
The case, said Protagoras, is far otherwise, Prodicus: I am quite sure that Simonides meant by hard the same as we generally do—not bad, but whatever is not easy and involves a great amount of trouble.
Ah, I agree with you, Protagoras, I said, that this is Simonides’ meaning, and that our friend Prodicus knows it, but is joking and chooses to experiment on you to see if you will be able to support your own statement. For that Simonides does not mean 341e that hard is bad we have clear proof forthwith in the next phrase, where he says—

God alone can have this privilege.

Simonides Fr. 37.1.14 Surely he cannot mean that it is bad to be good, if he proceeds here to say that God alone can have this thing, and attributes this privilege to God only; otherwise Prodicus would call Simonides a rake, and no true Cean.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Protagoras (Plato. Platonis Protagoras. Adam, James; Adam, Adela Marion, editors. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1921.) focus

οὐχ ὥσπερ ἐγώ , sc. εἰμί . The idiom is frequent in Plato, e.g. Symp. 179E οὐχ ὥσπερ Ἀχιλλέα—ἐτίμησαν καὶ εἰς μακάρων νήσους ἀπέπεμψαν.

μαθητής . Socrates calls himself a disciple of Prodicus also in Crat. 384B , Meno, 96D , Charm. 163D.

τὸ χαλεπὸν τοῦτο. τόmarks χαλεπόν as a quotation: see above on 331C

ἀλλ’ ὥσπερ κτλ. The application of the illustration follows in 341B ll. 27 ff. ἴσως οὖν καὶ τὸ χαλεπὸν—ὑπολαμβάνουσιν , where see note.

Πρωταγόρας σοφὸς καὶ δεινός ἐστιν . The ἢ ἄλλον τινά is neglected, and Πρωταγόρας takes us back to σέ : cf. note on ἐνδείξασθαι καὶ καλλωπίσασθαι in 317C The collocation σοφὸς καὶ δεινός is tolerably frequent in ironical characterisations, e.g. Theaet. 173B δεινοί τε καὶ σοφοὶ γεγονότες, ὡς οἴονται.

ἐρωτᾷ explains νουθετεῖ , whence the asyndeton explicativum : see on 335A above.

τὸ γὰρ δεινὸν—κακόν ἐστιν . Prodicus' canon—which rests on the derivation of δεινόν from δέος —is not borne out by Greek usage, except to this extent, that when a man is called δεινός , it is generally implied that he is more clever than good.

δεινοῦ πλούτου κτλ. Genitives of exclamation in the Platonic dialogues are generally (as Turner remarks) preceded by an interjection, e.g. Euthyd, 303A πυππὰξ ὦ Ἡράκλεις καλοῦ λόγουand ibid. ὦ Πόσειδον δεινῶν λόγων . Here of course the exclamation is left out as irrelevant: the only relevant point is the use of δεινός .

ἴσως οὖν καὶ τὸ χαλεπόν . Sauppe remarks that we should expect οὕτω καὶ τὸ χαλεπόν to introduce the apodosis to the ὥσπερ clause ( 341A l. 20); καί is however enough to show that we have reached the application; οὖν is introduced on account of the parenthesis from τὸ γὰρ δεινόν to κακοῦ ὄντος ; and ἴσως marks the suggestion as only tentative.

φωνήν : ‘dialect’ as often, e.g. Phaedo, 62A καὶ ὁ Κέβης—ἴττω Ζεύς, ἔφη, τῇ αὑτοῦ φωνῇ εἰπών.

κακόν, ἔφη . Prodicus enters into the spirit of the joke: in view of C and D it would be absurd to take this seriously: see note on ἀλλὰ παίζειν in D below.

τὰ ὀνόματα—ὀρθῶς διαιρεῖν : cf. above, 340A and below, 358A τὴν δὲ Προδίκου τοῦδε διαίρεσιν τῶν ὀνομάτων παραιτοῦμαι . Prodicus pretends to regard Simonides (cf. 341 A) as a teacher like himself of ὀνομάτων διαίρεσις .

ἅτε Λέσβιος ὤν : had he been Κεῖος , he would have learnt ὀνομάτων διαίρεσις forsooth in its natural home.

ἐν φωνῇ βαρβάρῳ : a malicious exaggeration inspired by the odium philologicum.

ἀλλὰ παίζειν . The editors suppose that Socrates is here turning the tables on Prodicus, who it is supposed meant his criticism seriously, but the tone of the passage seems to imply that Prodicus is in league with Socrates to make fun of Protagoras, who is represented throughout the whole dialogue as lacking all sense of humour. It would not be wit, but sheer buffoonery, in Plato to represent Prodicus as seriously believing that Simonides had censured Pittacus for having said: ‘It is bad to be good.’

καὶ σοῦ δοκεῖν ἀποπειρᾶσθαι. δοκεῖνis not pleonastic after οἶμαι but means ‘think fit’—a very idiomatic use, cf. Aesch. Ag. 16 ὅταν δ’ ἀείδειν ἢ μινύρεσθαι δοκῶ . See Class. Rev. III, 148, where Mr Arthur Sidgwick discusses and illustrates this usage.

οὐ δήπου τοῦτό γε λέγων. οὐ δήπουgoes with λέγων , which is ‘meaning’ not ‘saying’, and τοῦτο is explained by κακὸν ἐσθλὸν ἔμμεναι . For the asyndeton see on 335A and for the use of εἶτα cf. 311A and Symp. 200A πότερον ἔχων αὐτὸ οὗ ἐπιθυμεῖ τε καὶ ἐρᾷ, εἶτα ἐπιθυμεῖ τε καὶ ἐρᾷ, ἢ οὐκ ἔχων ;

τοῦτο γέρας . Heindorf reads τοῦτο τὸ γέρας as in 344C but γέρας may be regarded as predicative and going closely with ἀπένειμε , so that τοῦτο—τοῦτο balance each other. Sauppe compares Symp. 179C εὐαριθμήτοις δή τισιν ἔδοσαν τοῦτο γέρας οἱ θεοί.

ἀκόλαστον—οὐδαμῶς Κεῖον . This seems to be the earliest passage making allusion to the sobriety and uprightness of the Ceans, to which, perhaps, Aristophanes sarcastically alludes in Frogs, 970 ( οὐ Χῖος, ἀλλὰ Κεῖος ). In Laws, I. 638B (quoted by Sauppe) Plato cites the subjugation of the Ceans by the Athenians as a proof that victory does not always favour the more virtuous side. Strabo (X. 486) quotes from Menander the lines καλὸν τὸ Κείων νόμιμόν ἐστι, Φανία· ὁ μὴ δυνάμενος ζῆν καλῶς οὐ ζῇ κακῶς and explains them by saying that a Cean law required those above the age of 60 to take hemlock so as to make their country's produce suffice to feed the others.

Plato Protagoras 341

ed. John Burnet

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