Plato, Protagoras, ed. John Burnet, 324

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[324]

ΣΩ.

ὧν ἐστιν ἓν καὶ ἡ ἀδικία καὶ ἡ ἀσέβεια καὶ 324 324a συλλήβδην πᾶν τὸ ἐναντίον τῆς πολιτικῆς ἀρετῆς· ἔνθα δὴ πᾶς παντὶ θυμοῦται καὶ νουθετεῖ, δῆλον ὅτι ὡς ἐξ ἐπιμελείας καὶ μαθήσεως κτητῆς οὔσης. εἰ γὰρ ἐθέλεις ἐννοῆσαι τὸ κολάζειν, ὦ Σώκρατες, τοὺς ἀδικοῦντας τί ποτε δύναται, αὐτό σε διδάξει ὅτι οἵ γε ἄνθρωποι ἡγοῦνται παρασκευαστὸν εἶναι ἀρετήν. οὐδεὶς γὰρ κολάζει τοὺς ἀδικοῦντας πρὸς τούτῳ τὸν νοῦν ἔχων καὶ τούτου ἕνεκα, ὅτι ἠδίκησεν, ὅστις 324b μὴ ὥσπερ θηρίον ἀλογίστως τιμωρεῖται· ὁ δὲ μετὰ λόγου ἐπιχειρῶν κολάζειν οὐ τοῦ παρεληλυθότος ἕνεκα ἀδικήματος τιμωρεῖται—οὐ γὰρ ἂν τό γε πραχθὲν ἀγένητον θείη—ἀλλὰ τοῦ μέλλοντος χάριν, ἵνα μὴ αὖθις ἀδικήσῃ μήτε αὐτὸς οὗτος μήτε ἄλλος ὁ τοῦτον ἰδὼν κολασθέντα. καὶ τοιαύτην διάνοιαν ἔχων διανοεῖται παιδευτὴν εἶναι ἀρετήν· ἀποτροπῆς γοῦν ἕνεκα κολάζει. ταύτην οὖν τὴν δόξαν πάντες ἔχουσιν ὅσοιπερ 324c τιμωροῦνται καὶ ἰδίᾳ καὶ δημοσίᾳ. τιμωροῦνται δὲ καὶ κολάζονται οἵ τε ἄλλοι ἄνθρωποι οὓς ἂν οἴωνται ἀδικεῖν, καὶ οὐχ ἥκιστα Ἀθηναῖοι οἱ σοὶ πολῖται· ὥστε κατὰ τοῦτον τὸν λόγον καὶ Ἀθηναῖοί εἰσι τῶν ἡγουμένων παρασκευαστὸν εἶναι καὶ διδακτὸν ἀρετήν. ὡς μὲν οὖν εἰκότως ἀποδέχονται οἱ σοὶ πολῖται καὶ χαλκέως καὶ σκυτοτόμου συμβουλεύοντος τὰ πολιτικά, καὶ ὅτι διδακτὸν καὶ παρασκευαστὸν ἡγοῦνται ἀρετήν, ἀποδέδεικταί σοι, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἱκανῶς, ὥς γέ μοι 324d φαίνεται.
ἔτι δὴ λοιπὴ ἀπορία ἐστίν, ἣν ἀπορεῖς περὶ τῶν ἀνδρῶν τῶν ἀγαθῶν, τί δήποτε οἱ ἄνδρες οἱ ἀγαθοὶ τὰ μὲν ἄλλα τοὺς αὑτῶν ὑεῖς διδάσκουσιν ἃ διδασκάλων ἔχεται καὶ σοφοὺς ποιοῦσιν, ἣν δὲ αὐτοὶ ἀρετὴν ἀγαθοὶ οὐδενὸς βελτίους ποιοῦσιν. τούτου δὴ πέρι, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐκέτι μῦθόν σοι ἐρῶ ἀλλὰ λόγον. ὧδε γὰρ ἐννόησον· πότερον ἔστιν τι ἓν ἢ οὐκ ἔστιν οὗ ἀναγκαῖον πάντας τοὺς πολίτας μετέχειν, 324e εἴπερ μέλλει πόλις εἶναι; ἐν τούτῳ γὰρ αὕτη λύεται ἡ ἀπορία ἣν σὺ ἀπορεῖς ἢ ἄλλοθι οὐδαμοῦ.

Protagoras. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1903.

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Current edition Perseus

Πρωταγόρας (Greek) (Platonis Opera, Tomus III: Tetralogia V-VII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1903.)

Translations (1)

Protagoras Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 2. Lamb, W.R.M., translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1924 (printing).) — 324 focus

Soc.

One of them is injustice, and impiety, and in short all that is opposed 324a to civic virtue; in such case anyone will be wroth with his neighbor and reprove him, clearly because the virtue is to be acquired by application and learning. For if you will consider punishment, Socrates, and what control it has over wrong-doers, the facts will inform you that men agree in regarding virtue as procured. No one punishes a wrong-doer from the mere contemplation 324b or on account of his wrong-doing, unless one takes unreasoning vengeance like a wild beast. But he who undertakes to punish with reason does not avenge himself for the past offence, since he cannot make what was done as though it had not come to pass; he looks rather to the future, and aims at preventing that particular person and others who see him punished from doing wrong again. And being so minded he must have in mind that virtue comes by training: for you observe that he punishes to deter. This then is the accepted view 324c of all who seek requital in either private or public life; and while men in general exact requital and punishment from those whom they suppose to have wronged them, this is especially the case with the Athenians, your fellow-citizens, so that by our argument the Athenians also share the view that virtue is procured and taught. Thus I have shown that your fellow-citizens have good reason for admitting a smith’s or cobbler’s counsel in public affairs, and that they hold virtue to be taught and procured: 324d of this I have given you satisfactory demonstration, Socrates, as it appears to me.
I have yet to deal with your remaining problem about good men, why it is that these good men have their sons taught the subjects in the regular teachers’ courses, and so far make them wise, but do not make them excel in that virtue wherein consists their own goodness. On this point, Socrates, I shall give you argument instead of fable. Now consider: is there, 324e or is there not, some one thing whereof all the citizens must needs partake, if there is to be a city? Here, and nowhere if not here, is the solution of this problem of yours.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Protagoras (Plato. Platonis Protagoras. Adam, James; Adam, Adela Marion, editors. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1921.) focus

εἰ γὰρ ἐθέλεις—διδάξει . Cf. below, 342D

αὐτό σε διδάξει : ‘fact will show you,: Theaet. 200E ὁ τὸν ποταμὸν καθηγούμενος—ἔφη ἄρα δείξειν αὐτό; the idiom is a frequent one.

οὐδεὶς γάρ κολάζει κτλ. Plato's own theory of punishment so far agrees with this, but goes deeper: see Gorg. 525A ff. προσήκει δὲ παντὶ τῷ ἐν τιμωρίᾳ ὄντι, ὑπ’ ἄλλου ὀρθῶς τιμωρουμένῳ, ἢ βελτίονι γίγνεσθαι καὶ ὀνίνασθαι ἢ ραπαδείγματι τοῖς ἄλλοις γίγνεσθαι, ἵνα ἄλλοι ὁρῶντες πάσχοντα ἃ ἂν πάσχῃ φοβούμενοι βελτίους γίγνωνται . Vice (being ignorance) is disease of soul, as νόσος is of body: it is the business of the judge to cure the one as of the physician to cure the other: cf. Rep. IX. 591A -B and Gorg. 478D σωφρονίζει γάρ που καὶ δικαιοτέρους ποιεῖ καὶ ἰατρικὴ γίγνεται πονηρίας ἡ δίκη: hence ( ibid. 480B ff.) the sinner should go before the judge as readily as the patient to a doctor, and should even accuse his friends. In the ideal city the judges are to put to death incurable sinners just as the doctors will allow incurable patients to die: Rep. III. 409E ff. τῶν πολιτῶν σοι τοὺς μὲν εὐφυεῖς τὰ σώματα καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς θεπαρεύσουσι, τοὺς δὲ μή, ὅσοι μὲν κατὰ σῶμα τοιοῦτοι, ἀροθνῄσκειν ἐάσουσι, τοὺς δὲ κατὰ τὴν ψυχὴν κακοφυεῖς καὶ ἀνιάτους αὐτοὶ ἀποκτενοῦσιν . The same holds good of punishment after death: for Ardiaeus and the others in Rep. X. 616A , whose punishment is everlasting ( οὐχ ἥκει—οὐδ’ ἂν ἥξει δεῦρο ), are incurable— ἀτεχνῶς παραδείγματα ἀνηρτημένους ἐκεῖ ἐν ᾅδου ἐν τῷ δεσμωτηπίῳ, τοῖς ἀεὶ τῶν ἀδίκων ἀφικνουμένοις θεάματα καὶ νουθετήματα —the majority are punished to purge them of the guilt contracted upon earth and teach them to choose more wisely their lot of life next time. The remedial view of punishment is embedded in the genius of the Greek language, as is shown by the punitive sense of σωφρονίζειν, δικαιοῦν, εὐθύνειν . The older and sterner view ( δράσαντι παθεῖν ) appears more rarely in Plato's time.

ἠδίκησεν . See above on 319D

τιμωρεῖται . The editors quote Ar. Rhet. A, 10. 1369 b . 12 διαφέρει δὲ τιμωρία καὶ κόλασις· ἡ μὲν γὰρ κόλασις τοῦ πάσχοντος ἕνεκά ἐστιν, ἡ δὲ τιμωρία τοῦ ποιοῦντος, ἵνα ἀποπληρωθῇ . The distinction is not invariably observed in Plato, although he generally uses τιμωρεῖσθαι in passages where the gravity of the sin is more insisted upon.

οὐ τοῦ παρεληλυθότος—ἀγένητον θείη . Turner (on 324B quotes Laws, XI. 934A οὐχ ἕνεκα τοῦ κακουργῆσαι διδοὺς τὴν δίκην, οὐ γὰρ τὸ γεγονὸς ἀγένητον ἔσται ποτέ κτλ.The phrase οὐ γὰρ ἂν τό γε πραχθὲν ἀγένητον θείη represents a common proverbial saying: cf. Simonides, Frag. 69 τὸ γὰρ γεγενημένον οὐκέτ’ ἄρεκτον ἔσται (Sauppe) with Bergk's note, and the impressive application of the saying in Aesch. Ag. 1019-21 τὸ δ’ ἐρὶ γᾶν ἅραξ ρεσὸν θανάσιμον ρποράποιθ’ ἀνδπὸς μέλαν αἷμα τίς ἂν πάλιν ἀγκαλέσαιτ’ ἐπαείδων ;

κολάζονται : the middle (in the present) is rare: Heindorf quotes Ar. Wasps, 405 νῦν ἐκεῖνο νῦν ἐκεῖνο τοὐξύθυμον ᾧ κολαζόμεσθα κέντρον ἐντέτατ’ ὀξύ.

λοιπὴ ἀπορία . For the omission of the article before a relative clause (Heindorf suggested the insertion of ἡ after λοιπή ) Sauppe quotes Rep. III. 413E φύλαξ αὑτοῦ ὢν ἀγαθὸς καὶ μουσικῆς ἧς ἐμάνθανεν. The ἀπορία was raised by Socrates in 319D ff.

διδάσκουσιν . Contrast below 325B τὰ μὲν ἄλλα διδάσκονται τοὺς υἱεῖς and ibid. τοὺς υἱεῖς διδάσκονται , said of the parents as διδάσκουσιν (in the usual sense of διδάσκονται ) is said here and in Meno, 94B . Similarly in Prot. 320A ἐπαίδευε is used where we should expect ἐπαιδεύετο : cf. ἐπαιδεύσατο in Meno, 93D .

ἃ διδασκάλων ἔχεται . See note on 319E above.

οὐκέτι μῦθον ἀλλὰ λόγον . Gorg. 523A ὃν σὺ μὲν ἡγήσει μῦθον, ὡς ἐγὼ οἶμαι, ἐγὼ δὲ λόγον· ὡς ἀληθῆ γὰπ ὄντα σοι λέξω ἃ μέλλω λέγειν.

Plato Protagoras 324

ed. John Burnet

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