Plato, Protagoras, ed. John Burnet, 316

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[316]

ΣΩ.

τοῦτό τʼ ἦν τὸ μειράκιον, καὶ τὼ Ἀδειμάντω ἀμφοτέρω, ὅ τε Κήπιδος καὶ ὁ Λευκολοφίδου, καὶ ἄλλοι τινὲς ἐφαίνοντο· περὶ δὲ ὧν διελέγοντο οὐκ ἐδυνάμην ἔγωγε μαθεῖν ἔξωθεν, καίπερ λιπαρῶς ἔχων ἀκούειν τοῦ Προδίκου—πάσσοφος γάρ μοι δοκεῖ ἁνὴρ 316 316a εἶναι καὶ θεῖος—ἀλλὰ διὰ τὴν βαρύτητα τῆς φωνῆς βόμβος τις ἐν τῷ οἰκήματι γιγνόμενος ἀσαφῆ ἐποίει τὰ λεγόμενα.
καὶ ἡμεῖς μὲν ἄρτι εἰσεληλύθεμεν, κατόπιν δὲ ἡμῶν ἐπεισῆλθον Ἀλκιβιάδης τε ὁ καλός, ὡς φῂς σὺ καὶ ἐγὼ πείθομαι, καὶ Κριτίας ὁ Καλλαίσχρου.
ἡμεῖς οὖν ὡς εἰσήλθομεν, ἔτι σμίκρʼ ἄττα διατρίψαντες καὶ ταῦτα διαθεασάμενοι προσῇμεν πρὸς τὸν Πρωταγόραν, 316b καὶ ἐγὼ εἶπον· ὦ Πρωταγόρα, πρὸς σέ τοι ἤλθομεν ἐγώ τε καὶ Ἱπποκράτης οὗτος.
πότερον, ἔφη, μόνῳ βουλόμενοι διαλεχθῆναι ἢ καὶ μετὰ τῶν ἄλλων;
ἡμῖν μέν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, οὐδὲν διαφέρει· ἀκούσας δὲ οὗ ἕνεκα ἤλθομεν, αὐτὸς σκέψαι.
τί οὖν δή ἐστιν, ἔφη, οὗ ἕνεκα ἥκετε;
Ἱπποκράτης ὅδε ἐστὶν μὲν τῶν ἐπιχωρίων, Ἀπολλοδώρου ὑός, οἰκίας μεγάλης τε καὶ εὐδαίμονος, αὐτὸς δὲ τὴν φύσιν δοκεῖ ἐνάμιλλος εἶναι τοῖς ἡλικιώταις. ἐπιθυμεῖν δέ μοι 316c δοκεῖ ἐλλόγιμος γενέσθαι ἐν τῇ πόλει, τοῦτο δὲ οἴεταί οἱ μάλιστʼ ἂ ν γενέσθαι, εἰ σοὶ συγγένοιτο· ταῦτʼ οὖν ἤδη σὺ σκόπει, πότερον περὶ αὐτῶν μόνος οἴει δεῖν διαλέγεσθαι πρὸς μόνους, ἢ μετʼ ἄλλων.
ὀρθῶς, ἔφη, προμηθῇ, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ. ξένον γὰρ ἄνδρα καὶ ἰόντα εἰς πόλεις μεγάλας, καὶ ἐν ταύταις πείθοντα τῶν νέων τοὺς βελτίστους ἀπολείποντας τὰς τῶν ἄλλων συνουσίας, καὶ οἰκείων καὶ ὀθνείων, καὶ πρεσβυτέρων καὶ νεωτέρων, ἑαυτῷ συνεῖναι ὡς βελτίους ἐσομένους διὰ 316d τὴν ἑαυτοῦ συνουσίαν, χρὴ εὐλαβεῖσθαι τὸν ταῦτα πράττοντα· οὐ γὰρ σμικροὶ περὶ αὐτὰ φθόνοι τε γίγνονται καὶ ἄλλαι δυσμένειαί τε καὶ ἐπιβουλαί. ἐγὼ δὲ τὴν σοφιστικὴν τέχνην φημὶ μὲν εἶναι παλαιάν, τοὺς δὲ μεταχειριζομένους αὐτὴν τῶν παλαιῶν ἀνδρῶν, φοβουμένους τὸ ἐπαχθὲς αὐτῆς, πρόσχημα ποιεῖσθαι καὶ προκαλύπτεσθαι, τοὺς μὲν ποίησιν, οἷον Ὅμηρόν τε καὶ Ἡσίοδον καὶ Σιμωνίδην, τοὺς δὲ αὖ τελετάς τε καὶ χρησμῳδίας, τοὺς ἀμφί τε Ὀρφέα καὶ Μουσαῖον· ἐνίους δέ τινας ᾔσθημαι καὶ γυμναστικήν, οἷον Ἴκκος τε ὁ Ταραντῖνος καὶ ὁ νῦν ἔτι ὢν οὐδενὸς ἥττων σοφιστὴς 316e Ἡρόδικος ὁ Σηλυμβριανός, τὸ δὲ ἀρχαῖον Μεγαρεύς· μουσικὴν δὲ Ἀγαθοκλῆς τε ὁ ὑμέτερος πρόσχημα ἐποιήσατο, μέγας ὢν σοφιστής, καὶ Πυθοκλείδης ὁ Κεῖος καὶ ἄλλοι πολλοί. οὗτοι πάντες, ὥσπερ λέγω, φοβηθέντες τὸν φθόνον ταῖς τέχναις ταύταις παραπετάσμασιν ἐχρήσαντο.

Protagoras. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1903.

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Current edition Perseus

Πρωταγόρας (Greek) (Platonis Opera, Tomus III: Tetralogia V-VII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1903.)

Translations (1)

Protagoras Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 2. Lamb, W.R.M., translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1924 (printing).) — 316 focus

Soc.

Besides this youth there were the two Adeimantuses, sons of Cepis and Leucolophidas, and there seemed to be some others. The subjects of their conversation I was unable to gather from outside, despite my longing to hear Prodicus; for I regard the man as all-wise and divine: 316a but owing to the depth of his voice the room was filled with a booming sound which made the talk indistinct.
We had only just come in, when close on our heels entered Alcibiades the good-looking, as you call him and I agree that he is, and Critias, son of Callaeschrus. So, when we had entered, after some more little delays over certain points we had to examine, we went up to Protagoras, 316b and I said: Protagoras, you see we have come to you, Hippocrates and I.
Is it your wish, he asked, to converse with me alone, or in company with others?
It is all the same to us, I replied: let me first tell you our object in coming, and then you must decide.
Well, what is your object? he asked.
My friend Hippocrates is a native of the city, a son of Apollodorus and one of a great and prosperous family, while his own natural powers seem to make him a match for anyone of his age. 316c I fancy he is anxious to gain consideration in our city, and he believes he can best gain it by consorting with you. So now it is for you to judge whether it will be fittest for you to converse on this matter privately with us alone, or in company with others.
You do right, Socrates, he said, to be so thoughtful on my behalf. For when one goes as a stranger into great cities, and there tries to persuade the best of the young men to drop their other connexions, either with their own folk or with foreigners, both old and young, and to join one’s own circle, with the promise of improving them by this connexion with oneself, 316d such a proceeding requires great caution; since very considerable jealousies are apt to ensue, and numerous enmities and intrigues. Now I tell you that sophistry is an ancient art, and those men of ancient times who practised it, fearing the odium it involved, disguised it in a decent dress, sometimes of poetry, as in the case of Homer, Hesiod, and Simonides sometimes of mystic rites and soothsayings, as did Orpheus, Musaeus and their sects; and sometimes too, I have observed, of athletics, as with Iccus¹ of Tarentum and another still living—as great a sophist as any— 316e Herodicus² of Selymbria, originally of Megara; and music was the disguise employed by your own Agathocles,³ a great sophist, Pythocleides⁴ of Ceos, and many more. All these, as I say, from fear of ill-will made use of these arts 317a as outer coverings.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Protagoras (Plato. Platonis Protagoras. Adam, James; Adam, Adela Marion, editors. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1921.) focus

Κριτίας the foremost of the Thirty so-called tyrants was related to Plato on the mother's side, Perictione Plato's mother being granddaughter of the elder Critias, who was father of Callaeschrus. He is one of the dramatis personae in the Charmides and Timaeus, and the dialogue Critias is named after him. A scholiast on the Timaeus, 20A (quoted by Stallbaum) describes him as γενναίας καὶ ἁδρᾶς φύσεως, ἥπτετο δὲ καὶ φιλοσόφων συνουσιῶν, καὶ ἐκαλεῖτο ἰδιώτης μὲν ἐν φιλοσόφοις, φιλόσοφος δὲ ἐν ἰδιώταις . For the fragments of his poems see Bergk's Poetae Lyrici Graeci 4 , II, 279 ff.

ἔτι σμίκρ’ ἄττα—διαθεασάμενοι. σμίκρ’ ἄτταis the plural of σμικρόν τι , and as ἔτι σμικρόν τι διατρίψαντες would mean ‘after a little further delay’, so ἔτι σμίκρ’ ἄττα διατρίψαντες means ‘after some little further delays’. The reference in ἔτι is to 314C ταῦτα in καὶ ταῦτα refers to the causes of the delays, which were, as usual, some topics of discourse: its antecedent is involved in διατρίψαντες .

πρὸς σέ τοι ἤλθομεν . Here, as in 314E both B and T have τι for τοι : but τι is impossible here, and this use of τοι is very frequent in address: Heindorf refers ( inter alia ) to Ar. Plut. 1100 σέ τοι σέ τοι λέγω, Καρίων, ἀνάμεινον .

οἴεταί οἱ μάλιστ’ ἂν γενέσθαι . B and T read μάλιστα without ἄν : see on Crito, 51E . It is more likely that ἄν should have dropped out after μάλιστα here than that Plato's usage should have varied with οἴομαι and the aorist infinitive referring to the future: cf. below, 353B ᾗ οἶμαι ἂν ἔγωγε κάλλιστα φανερὸν γενέσθαι , where ἄν is in all the MSS.

μόνος οἴει δεῖν—πρὸς μόνους. οἴει δεῖνis virtually like one verb, ἀξιοῖς or the like: it therefore takes the nom. (not the acc.) with inf.; cf. Demosth. Fals. Leg. 235 εὐθὺς ἡγούμην ἐν τούτοις—αὐτὸς περιεῖναι δεῖν αὐτῶν καὶ μεγαλοψυχότερος φαίνεσθαι , quoted by Stallbaum on Crito, 50E . Note that Protagoras here uses the more precise μόνος πρὸς μόνους , but above only μόνῳ (316 B)—unless (with Cobet and Schanz) we there insert μόνοι before μόνῳ .

ξένον γὰρ ἄνδρα καὶ ἰόντα κτλ. For καὶ ἰόντα T reads in the margin κατιόντα : Liebhold suggests καταλύοντα. ἰόντα , however, is parallel to ξένον and to πείθοντα , ‘a man who is a stranger and goes—and tries to persuade etc.’ The whole passage recalls Apol. 19E -20A τούτων (viz. Gorgias, Prodicus, Hippias) γὰρ ἕκαστος—οἷός τ’ ἐστὶν ἰὼν εἰς ἑκάστην τῶν πόλεων τοὺς νέους οἷς ἔξεστι τῶν ἑαυτῶν ρολιτῶν ρποῖκα ξυνεῖναι ᾧ ἂν βούλωνται—τούτους ρείθουσι τὰς ἐκείνων ξυνουσίας ἀρολιρόντας σφίσιν ξυνεῖναι χρήματα διδόντας καὶ χάριν προσειδέναι . Notice throughout the longwinded character of Protagoras' speeches: cf. Philostrat. Vit. Soph. I. 494 (quoted by Kroschel on 320C , γνοὺς δὲ τὸν Πρωταγόραν ὁ Πλάτων σεμνῶς μὲν ἑρμηνεύοντα, ὑπτιάζοντα δὲ τῇ σεμνότητι καί που καὶ μακρολογώτερον τοῦ συμμέτρου, τὴν ἰδέαν αὐτοῦ μύθῳ μακρῷ ἐχαρακτήρισεν .

τὸ ἐπαχθὲς αὐτῆς. ἐπαχθέςlike φορτικόν means what hearers will resent (think a burden or ἄχθος ) as in bad taste because presumptuous: cf. Demosth. de Pace, 4 τὸ λέγειν περὶ ὧν αὐτὸς εἶρέ τις καὶ ρεπὶ αὑτοῦ—οὕτως ἡγοῦμαι φοπτικὸν καὶ ἐπαχθὲς ὥστε κτλ.

τοὺς μὲν ποίησιν. σοφόςand its derivatives are often used especially in early writers in connection with poetry, e.g Theognis, 19-20 Κύρνε σοφιζομένῳ μὲν ἐμοὶ σφρηγὶς ἐπικείσθω τοῖσδ’ ἔπεσιν , Pindar, Isthm. 4. 29-30 μελέταν δὲ σοφισταῖς Διὸς ἕκατι πρόσβαλον σεβιζόμενοι .

τοὺς ἀμφί τε Ὀρφέα καὶ Μουσαῖον = ‘Orpheus and Musaeus and their schools’. The Editors quote Ar. Frogs, 1032 ff. Ὀρφεὺς μὲν γὰρ τελετάς θ’ ἡμῖν κατέδειξε φόνων τ’ ἀρέχεσθαι, Μουσαῖος δ’ ἐξακέσεις τε νόσων καὶ χπησμούς, Ἡσίοδος δὲ γῆς ἐργασίας, καρπῶν ὥρας, ἀρότους· ὁ δὲ θεῖος Ὅμηρος ἀπὸ τοῦ τιμὴν καὶ κλέος ἔσχεν πλὴν τοῦδ’ ὅτι χρήστ’ ἐδίδαξε, τάξεις, ἀρετάς, ὁπλίσεις ἀνδρῶν ;For the misplacement of τε cf. Crito, 43B ὲν τοσαύτῃ τε ἀγρυπνίᾳ καὶ λύπῃ εἶναι.

Ἴκκος—Ἡρόδικος . Iccus is mentioned in Laws, VIII. 839E ff. as a model of temperance. According to Pausanias, he won in the pentathlon at the Olympic Games and afterwards set up as a trainer ( γυμναστής ). Herodicus of Selymbria in Thrace combined the professions of the γυμναστής and ἰατρός ( μίξας γυμναστικὴν ἰατρικῇ ). He is described in Rep. III. 406A as the inventor of the παιδαγωγικὴ τῶν νοσημάτων ἰατρική —by means of which he tortured first himself (by prolonging his own dying) and afterwards others: δυσθανατῶν—ὑπὸ σοφίας εἰς γῆρας ἀφίκετο ( ibid. B).

ὁ νῦν ἔτι ὤν—σοφιστής . Heindorf reads ἧττον in place of ἥττων , but νῦν ἔτι ὤν is ‘still living’ and οὐδενὸς ἥττων σοφιστής is a descriptive qualification.

Ἀγαθοκλῆς—Πυθοκλείδης . Agathocles is mentioned in Lach. 180D as teacher of Damon: according to the Alc. I, 118C Pythoclides also taught Pericles. A scholiast on the Alc. I ( loc. cit. ) remarks: Πυθοκλείδης μουσικὸς ἦν τῆς σεμνῆς μουσικῆς διδάσκαλος, καὶ Πυθαγόρειος, οὗ μαθητὴς Ἀγαθοκλῆς, οὗ Λαμπροκλῆς ( Λάμπρος , van Prinsterer), οὗ Δάμων . With the sentiment compare the imitation in Plut. Pericl. 4. 2 ὁ δὲ Δάμων ἔοικεν ἄκπος ὢν σοφιστὴς καταδύεσθαι μὲν εἰς τὸ τῆς μουσικῆς ὄνομα ρπὸς τοὺς πολλοὺς ἐπικρυπτόμενος τὴν δεινότητα .

ταῖς τέχναις ταύταις παραπετάσμασιν ἐχρήσαντο . Cf. Plut. Pericl. loc. cit. οὐ μὴν ἔλαθεν ὁ Δάμων τῇ λύρᾳ παρακαλύμματι χρώμενος .

Plato Protagoras 316

ed. John Burnet

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