τί δέ—ὅ τι ἂν τύχωσι τοῦτο λέγουσιν
; Cf.
Crito, 44C
ἀλλὰ τί ἡμῖν, ὦ μακάριε Κρίτων, οὕτω τῆς τῶν πολλῶν δόξης μέλει
;and 44D
ποιοῦσι δὲ τοῦτο ὅ τι ἂν τύχωσι (sc.
ποιοῦντες ).
ἐλέγομεν
is more humble than
λέγομεν —the idea is ‘used to call’ till you said it was wrong.
ἀκούετε δή
: Socrates bespeaks ‘Attention!’ like a herald.
ἀκούετε λεῴ (e.g.
Ar.
Peace, 551
) was the usual way of beginning a proclamation at Athens. Cf.
Apol. 20D
, 32A,
Theaet. 201D
.
ἄλλο τι
. This, the shorter form of this particle of interrogation, is probably not a deliberate abbreviation for
ἄλλο τι ἤ. Thus
ἄλλο τι τοῦτο ἀληθές ἐστιν = ‘this is true—anything else?’ i.e. isn't it?, the words being thrown in parenthetically like
nicht wahr and
n'est ce pas.
ἐν τοῖσδε—οί=ον·
τοῖσδεwould lead us to expect an enumeration of the cases: as it is, only examples are given. The effect of the Greek may be brought out by ‘in the following cases—that often for example, etc.’ With this punctuation it is needless to write (as Kroschel does)
τοιοῖσδε for
τοῖσδε .
γιγνώσκοντες ὅτι πονηρά ἐστιν
: cf.
Meno, 77C
ἦ γὰρ δοκεῖ σοι, ὦ Μένων, γιγνώσκων τὰ κακὰ ὅτι κακά ἐστιν ὅμως ἐριθυμεῖν αὐτῶν; μάλιστα.
κἂν εἴ
: see note on
328A
above.
ὅμως δ’ ἂν κακὰ ἦν
. So the MSS.: most recent editors (except Kral) read
εἴη . The imperfect is used because the answer ‘No’ is expected and desired: would they be evil just because they give us pleasure? Certainly not. See Goodwin,
M.T. p. 190, § 503. Schleiermacher wrongly rejected
δέ after
ὅμως : the ‘apodotic
δέ ’ is frequent after
ὅμως, ὡσαύτως, οὕτω and the like.
ὅ τι μαθόντα ποιεῖ κτλ
. So the MSS. A variety of emendations have been proposed for
μαθόντα , such as
ἁμαρτόντα (Schleiermacher, followed by Heindorf),
ἀμαθαίνοντα (Orelli),
παρόντα (Hermann),
παθόντα (Sauppe and others), while Kroschel doubts the entire passage
ἦν—ὁπῃοῦν , saying ‘Totus autem locus ita comparatus est ut de eius emendatione desperandum esse videatur’. It would be natural to regard this particular passage as corrupt if this were an isolated example of the idiom in question; but—not to mention other authors—it occurs also in the following passages of Plato:
Apol. 36B
τί
ἄξιός εἰμι παθεῖν ἢ ἀποτῖσαι, ὅ τι μαθὼν ἐν τῷ βίῳ οὐχ ἡσυχίαν ἦγον
; Euthyd.283E
εἰ μὴ ἀγροικότερον—ἦν εἰπεῖν, εἶπον ἄν, σοὶ εἰς κεφαλήν, ὅ τι μαθὼν ἐμοῦ—καταψεύδει κτλ. ;
ibid. 299A
πολὺ μέντοι—δικαιότεπον ἂν τὸν ὑμέτεπον ρατέπα τύρτοιμι, ὅ τι μαθὼν σοφοὺς υἱεῖς οὕτως ἔφυσεν . In each of these cases the MSS. reading
μαθών (not
παθών ) should be retained. In the direct speech
τί μαθών is used in an impatient question:
τί μαθὼν τοῦτο ἐποίησας is ‘what ever made you think of doing this?’ (e.g.
Ar.
Clouds, 1506
,
Wasps, 251,
Ach. 826): cf. the idiom
τί ληρεῖς ἔχων
; in which
τί depends on
ἔχων (see Kühner,
Gr. Gr. II, 624).
τί μαθών becomes in the indirect
ὅ τι μαθών , but in every case in which this phrase occurs in Plato
ὅ τι μαθών means not ‘why’ but ‘because’. The transition in meaning is sometimes explained as parallel to the use of
οἶος, ὅσος, ὡς etc. for
ὅτι τοιοῦτος, ὅτι τοσοῦτος, ὅτι οὕτως , so that
ὅ τι μαθών =
ὅτι τοῦτο μαθών ; but a simpler explanation is perhaps possible (see my edition of the
Apol. Appendix II, p. 123).
ὅ τι μαθών is an impatient
ὅ τι just as
τί μαθών is an impatient
τί ; but as
ὅτι and
ὅ τι are in reality the same word (see on
333B
, and
ὅτι means ‘because’,
ὅ τι μαθών comes also to mean ‘because’ (impatiently), the original interrogative force being lost. Similarly, in sentences like
ληρεῖς ἔχων , the interrogation is dropped, and the participle alone survives, conveying the same sense of blame or impatience as in
τί ληρεῖς ἔχων
; which is probably the form of sentence in which this idiom originated. Here
μαθόντα is of course the nom. plur.; if (as we suppose) the original force of the participle is no longer felt in this idiom, there is nothing harsh in finding it in agreement with a neuter subject.
οὐκοῦν πάλιν ἂν—ἐροίμεθα
. There is no sufficient reason for changing
ἄν to
αὖ or for omitting
ἄν :
ἄν points forward to the apodosis in l. 35
φαῖεν ἄν and is just as idiomatic as
ἄν in
ὥσπερ ἂν εἰ , e.g. in
311B
above.
οί=ον τά τε γυμνάσια κτλ.
Rep.II. 357C
τρίτον δὲ ὁρᾷς τι—εἶδος ἀγαθοῦ, ἐν ᾧ τὸ γυμνάζεσθαι καὶ τὸ κάμνοντα ἰατπεύεσθαι καὶ ἰάτπευσίς τε καὶ ὁ ἄλλος χπηματισμός; ταῦτα γὰπ ἐρίρονα φαῖμεν ἄν, ὠφελεῖν δὲ ἡμᾶς, καὶ αὐτὰ μὲν ἑαυτῶν ἕνεκα οὐκ ἂν δεξαίμεθα ἔχειν, τῶν δὲ μισθῶν τε χάριν καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ὅσα γίγνεται ἀπ’ αὐτῶν .
τὰς στρατείας
. Ar.
Eth. Nic. X. 7. 1177
b . 9
οὐδεὶς γὰρ αἱρεῖται τὸ πολεμεῖν τοῦ πολεμεῖν ἕνεκα, οὐδὲ παρασκευάζει πόλεμον·
δόξαι γὰρ ἂν παντελῶς μιαιφόνος τις εἶναι, εἰ τοὺς φίλους πολεμίους ποιοῖτο, ἵνα μάχαι καὶ φόνοι γιγνοιντο .
καύσεών τε—λιμοκτονιῶν
.
Gorg. 521E
πολλὰ ὑμᾶς καὶ κακὰ ὅδε εἴργασται ἁνήρ(sc.
ὁ ἰατρός )—
τέμνων τε καὶ κάων, καὶ ἰσχναίνων καὶ ρνίγων—ρικπότατα ρώματα διδοὺς καὶ ρεινῆν καὶ διψῆν ἀναγκάζων. λιμοκτονία (‘Hungerkur’, says Stallbaum) is part of the
μικρὰ δίαιτα of
Rep. III. 406D
.
ἄλλων ἀρχαί
: ‘dominions over others’—not
ἄλλων πόλεων : cf.
Gorg. 452D
αἴτιον ἅμα μὲν ἐλευθερίας αὐτοῖς τοῖς ἀνθρώποις, ἄμα δὲ τοῦ ἄλλων ἄρχειν ἐν τῇ αὑτοῦ πόλει ἑκάστῳ. Heindorf's conjecture
ἄλλαι (i.e. ‘besides’) is not necessary, in view of
Gorg. 514A
(quoted by Sauppe)
ἢ χρήματα πολλὰ λαμβάνειν ἢ ἀρχήν τινων ἢ ἄλλην δύναμιν ἡντινοῦν .
τέλος
. The philosophical sense of this word—as an end of action—is beginning to appear in Plato: cf.
Gorg. 499E
ἆρα καὶ σοὶ συνδοκεῖ οὕτω, τέλος εἶναι ἁπασῶν τῶν πράξεων τὸ ἀγαθὸν κτλ.
;
ἀλλ’ ἢ ἡδονάς
is Stephanus' emendation for
ἀλλ’ ἡδονάς .
ὡς ἀγαθὸν ὄν
: the copula is attracted to the predicate, as regularly: cf. below,
359D
τὸ ἥττω εἶvαι ἑαυτοῦ ηὑρέθη ἀμαθία οὖσα .
εἴ με ἀνέροισθε
: without the
φαίην ἄν which we should expect. Socrates apostrophises the
ἄνθρωποι as if they stood before him; the
φαίην ἂν ἔγωγε of l. 66 is part of what Socrates says to the
ἄνθρωποι .
ἐν τούτῳ
: see on
310D
above.
πᾶσαι αἱ ἀποδείξεις means all the proofs that pleasure is good and pain evil.
ἀναθέσθαι
suggests (as often) draughts-playing: a comparison which is worked up into a simile by Plato in
Rep. VI. 487B-C.
