Plato, Protagoras, Walter Rangeley Maitland Lamb (Translator), 325

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Soc.

For if there is such a thing, and that one thing, instead of being the joiner’s or smith’s or potter’s art, is rather justice and temperance and holiness— 325a in short, what I may put together and call a man’s virtue; and if it is this whereof all should partake and wherewith everyone should proceed to any further knowledge or action, but should not if he lacks it; if we should instruct and punish such as do not partake of it, whether child or husband or wife, until the punishment of such persons has made them better, 325b and should cast forth from our cities or put to death as incurable whoever fails to respond to such punishment and instruction;—if it is like this, and yet, its nature being so, good men have their sons instructed in everything else but this, what very surprising folk the good are found to be! For we have proved that they regard this thing as teachable both in private and in public life, and then, though it may be taught and fostered, are we to say that they have their sons taught everything in which the penalty for ignorance is not death, but in a matter where the death-penalty or exile awaits their children 325c if not instructed and cultivated in virtue—and not merely death, but confiscation of property and practically the entire subversion of their house—here they do not have them taught or take the utmost care of them? So at any rate we must conclude, Socrates.
They teach and admonish them from earliest childhood till the last day of their lives. As soon as one of them grasps what is said to him, the nurse, the mother, the tutor, and the father himself strive hard 325d that the child may excel, and as each act and word occurs they teach and impress upon him that this is just, and that unjust, one thing noble, another base, one holy, another unholy, and that he is to do this, and not do that. If he readily obeys,—so; but if not, they treat him as a bent and twisted piece of wood and straighten him with threats and blows. After this they send them to school and charge the master to take far more pains over their children’s good behavior than over their letters 325e and harp-playing.

Protagoras. Plato. Walter Rangeley Maitland Lamb (Translator). Cambridge, MA. 1924.

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Current edition Perseus

Protagoras (English) (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 2. Lamb, W.R.M., translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1924 (printing).)

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Πρωταγόρας Perseus (Platonis Opera, Tomus III: Tetralogia V-VII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1903.) — 325 focus

[325]

ΣΩ.

εἰ μὲν γὰρ ἔστιν, καὶ τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ ἓν οὐ τεκτονικὴ οὐδὲ χαλκεία οὐδὲ κεραμεία 325 325a ἀλλὰ δικαιοσύνη καὶ σωφροσύνη καὶ τὸ ὅσιον εἶναι, καὶ συλλήβδην ἓν αὐτὸ προσαγορεύω εἶναι ἀνδρὸς ἀρετήν—εἰ τοῦτʼ ἐστὶν οὗ δεῖ πάντας μετέχειν καὶ μετὰ τούτου πάντʼ ἄνδρα, ἐάν τι καὶ ἄλλο βούληται μανθάνειν ἢ πράττειν, οὕτω πράττειν, ἄνευ δὲ τούτου μή, ἢ τὸν μὴ μετέχοντα καὶ διδάσκειν καὶ κολάζειν καὶ παῖδα καὶ ἄνδρα καὶ γυναῖκα, ἕωσπερ ἂν κολαζόμενος βελτίων γένηται, ὃς δʼ ἂν μὴ ὑπακούῃ κολαζόμενος καὶ διδασκόμενος, ὡς ἀνίατον ὄντα τοῦτον 325b ἐκβάλλειν ἐκ τῶν πόλεων ἢ ἀποκτείνειν—εἰ οὕτω μὲν ἔχει, οὕτω δʼ αὐτοῦ πεφυκότος οἱ ἀγαθοὶ ἄνδρες εἰ τὰ μὲν ἄλλα διδάσκονται τοὺς ὑεῖς, τοῦτο δὲ μή, σκέψαι ὡς θαυμασίως γίγνονται οἱ ἀγαθοί. ὅτι μὲν γὰρ διδακτὸν αὐτὸ ἡγοῦνται καὶ ἰδίᾳ καὶ δημοσίᾳ, ἀπεδείξαμεν· διδακτοῦ δὲ ὄντος καὶ θεραπευτοῦ τὰ μὲν ἄλλα ἄρα τοὺς ὑεῖς διδάσκονται, ἐφʼ οἷς οὐκ ἔστι θάνατος ἡ ζημία ἐὰν μὴ ἐπίστωνται, ἐφʼ ᾧ δὲ ἥ τε ζημία θάνατος αὐτῶν τοῖς παισὶ καὶ φυγαὶ μὴ μαθοῦσι 325c μηδὲ θεραπευθεῖσιν εἰς ἀρετήν, καὶ πρὸς τῷ θανάτῳ χρημάτων τε δημεύσεις καὶ ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν συλλήβδην τῶν οἴκων ἀνατροπαί, ταῦτα δʼ ἄρα οὐ διδάσκονται οὐδʼ ἐπιμελοῦνται πᾶσαν ἐπιμέλειαν; οἴεσθαί γε χρή, ὦ Σώκρατες. ἐκ παίδων σμικρῶν ἀρξάμενοι, μέχρι οὗπερ ἂν ζῶσι, καὶ διδάσκουσι καὶ νουθετοῦσιν. ἐπειδὰν θᾶττον συνιῇ τις τὰ λεγόμενα, καὶ τροφὸς καὶ μήτηρ καὶ παιδαγωγὸς καὶ αὐτὸς 325d ὁ πατὴρ περὶ τούτου διαμάχονται, ὅπως ὡς βέλτιστος ἔσται ὁ παῖς, παρʼ ἕκαστον καὶ ἔργον καὶ λόγον διδάσκοντες καὶ ἐνδεικνύμενοι ὅτι τὸ μὲν δίκαιον, τὸ δὲ ἄδικον, καὶ τόδε μὲν καλόν, τόδε δὲ αἰσχρόν, καὶ τόδε μὲν ὅσιον, τόδε δὲ ἀνόσιον, καὶ τὰ μὲν ποίει, τὰ δὲ μὴ ποίει. καὶ ἐὰν μὲν ἑκὼν πείθηται· εἰ δὲ μή, ὥσπερ ξύλον διαστρεφόμενον καὶ καμπτόμενον εὐθύνουσιν ἀπειλαῖς καὶ πληγαῖς. μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα εἰς διδασκάλων πέμποντες πολὺ μᾶλλον ἐντέλλονται ἐπιμελεῖσθαι 325e εὐκοσμίας τῶν παίδων ἢ γραμμάτων τε καὶ κιθαρίσεως·

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Protagoras (Plato. Platonis Protagoras. Adam, James; Adam, Adela Marion, editors. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1921.) focus

δικαιοσύνη—τὸ ὅσιον εἶναι . Thus for the first time Protagoras definitely speaks of the virtues in language implying their unity: cf. 323E

ἀνδρὸς ἀρετήν· ἀνδρόςis somewhat loftier and more impressive than ἀνθρώπου (cf. Rep. VIII. 565E βίον ἀνδρὸς ἀφανίζων). For the sentiment cf. Rep. VI. 501B ξυμμιγνύντες τε καὶ κεραννύντες ἐκ τῶν ἐπιτηδευμάτων τὸ ἀνδρείκελον, ἀπ’ ἐκείνου τεκμαιρόμενοι, ὃ δὴ καὶ Ὅμηρος ἐκάλεσεν ἐν τοῖς ἀνθρώποις ἐγγιγνόμενον θεοειδές τε καὶ θεοείκελον.

μετὰ τοὐτου : not μεθ’ οὗ , see on 313A καὶ ἐν ᾧ . For the use of μετά cf. Phaed. 69A ff. ( μὴ ) ᾖ ἐκεῖνο μόνον τὸ νόμισμα ὀρθόν, ἀνθ’ οὗ δεῖ ἅπαντα ταῦτα καταλλάττεσθαι, φρόνησις, καὶ τούτου μὲν καὶ μετὰ τούτου ( ὠνούμενά τε καὶ πιπρασκόμενα ) τῷ ὄντι ᾖ καὶ ἀνδρεία κτλ.

καὶ παῖδα καὶ ἄνδρα καὶ γυναῖκα : nearly equivalent to ‘not only child but etc.’: παῖδα is put first as the natural object of κολάζειν —‘et nos ergo manum ferulae subduximus’ (Juv. 1. 15).

ὑπακούῃ is more than obey: the word means ‘to hear and answer’ (cf. Crito, 43A ): tr. ‘respond’, sc. by becoming better (as explained in l. 19).

ὡς ἀνίατον ὄντα—ἀποκτείνειν : Rep. III. 410A τοὺς— κατὰ τὴν ψυχὴν κακοφυεῖς καὶ ἀνιάτους αὐτοὶ ἀποκτενοῦσι. In the next line αὐτοῦ in αὐτοῦ πεφυκότος is still this ‘one thing’, viz. ἀνδρὸς ἀρετή .

ὡς θαυμάσιοι γίγνονται . The MSS. have ὡς θαυμασίως γίγνονται , which could only mean ‘in what a strange way are produced’—a meaning irrelevant here. The point is that it is θαυμαστόν if ‘good men’—virtue having been proved to be teachable—teach their sons everything except virtue. θαυμάσιοι (with Kroschel and other editors) seems the simplest of the many emendations proposed: cf. Euthyd. 305B θαυμάσιοί εἰσιν οἱ τοιοῦτοι ἄνδρες. The mistake may have arisen from the influence of the common θαυμασίως ὡς . Next best is Hirschig's θαυμασίως γίγνονται ἀγαθοὶ οἱ ἀγαθοὶ (cf. 328E οὐκ εἶναι ἀνθρωπίνην ἐπιμέλειαν ᾖ ἀγαθοὶ οἱ ἀγαθοὶ γίγνονται ) or θαυμασίως γίγνονται οἱ ἀγαθοὶ ἀγαθοί : cf. Meno, 89B οἱ ἀγαθοὶ ἀγαθοὶ γίγνονταιand Heindorf's emendation on 326C below. As to γίγνονται ‘Saepius a Platone id quod argumentatione colligitur, γίγνεσθαι dicitur, ut p. 355A φημὶ ὑμῖν τούτου οὕτως ἔχοντος γελοῖον τὸν λόγον γίγνεσθαι ὅταν λέγητε κτλ. , Euthyd. p. 298E οὐκοῦν ὁ κύων πατὴρ ὢν σός ἐστιν, ὥστε σὸς πατὴρ γίγνεται ὁ κύων ’ (Kroschel). The same use of γίγνεσθαι is common in Aristotle.

τὰ μὲν ἄλλα ἄρα . For the form of the sentence and for ἄρα here and in l. 33 cf. note on Crito, 50E ἢ πρὸς μὲν ἄρα.

διδάσκονται (but not of course ἄρα ) is interrogative: so οὐ διδάσκονται in l. 33.

ἐφ’ ᾦ. This, and not ἐφ’ ὦν (as asserted by Schanz), is after all the reading of B: see Adamson in Cl. Rev. VII, 445. In itself, ἐφ’ ὧν (so T) is not indefensible: ἐφ’ ὧν (i.e. ἐπὶ τούτων ἃ ) κτλ. would mean ‘in the case of subjects which if they have not learnt’ ( μὴ μαθοῦσι ), the latent ἅ depending on μαθοῦσι . This use of ἐπὶ with the genitive is common in Plato, e.g. Rep. VII. 524E ὥσπερ ἐπὶ τοῦ δακτύλου ἐλέγομεν. But ἐφ’ ᾧ (which Heindorf had already conjectured) is simpler and better. For the misplacement of τε in ἥ τε ζημία see note on 316D above.

ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν is to be taken with ξυλλήβδην , which goes with the verbal noun ἀνατροπαί : ‘almost wholesale subversion of their house’. ξυλλήβδην means ‘not κατὰ σμικρόν , but so as to embrace everything’: cf. Rep. 1. 344A B τυραννὶς ἣ οὐ κατὰ σμικρὸν τἀλλότρια καὶ λάθρᾳ καὶ βίᾳ ἀφαιρεῖται—ἀλλὰ ξυλλήβδην , and Theognis, 147 ἐν δὲ δικαιοσύνῃ συλλήβδην πᾶσ’ ἀρετὴ ’νι . For ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν see on 317A

οἴεσθαί γε χρή : a way of answering one's own question: Crito, 53D , 54B.

ὅπως βέλτιστος : so BT: there is no reason for inserting ὡς after ὅπως with Kroschel and Turner: βέλτιστος does not mean better than all others, but very good.

παρ’ ἕκαστον κτλ. ‘Est eo ipso tempore quo quidque vel fit vel dicitur’ (Heindorf).

τὸ μὲν δίκαιον κτλ. Sauppe well quotes Ter. Ad. 417-18 where a father νουθετεῖ his son ‘Hoc facito—Hoc fugito—Hoc laudi est—Hoc vitio datur’. Cf. Hor. Sat. I. 4. 105 ff.

τὰ μὲν ποίει, τὰ δὲ μὴ ποίει· τὰ μὲνis not δίκαιον, καλόν, ὅσιον , but quite general: ‘this do, that do not’. The τάδε μὲν— τάδε δέ of T is unnecessary; cf. τὸ μὲν—τὸ δέ in l. 7. The symmetry of the sentence is worth noting ( a, b, b, a ): first τὸ μὲν—τὸ δέ , next τόδε μὲν—τόδε δέ twice, last τὰ μὲν—τὰ δέ , the end recalling the beginning. Cf. note on καὶ κακὸν καὶ αἰσχρόν in Crito, 49B .

ἐὰν μὲν ἑκὼν πείθηται : without apodosis: see Goodwin, Moods and Tenses (1889), p. 179. This idiom occurs more than once in Homer: it is perhaps a remnant of the days when the conditional particles introduced a main sentence: certainly the Greeks were not conscious of any such ellipse as εὖ ἕξει .

ὥσπερ ξύλον διαστρεφόμενον. ξύλονis ‘a piece of wood’, not necessarily a dead log, as appears from Hdt. III. 47 εἰρίοισι ἀπὸ ξύλου (of the cotton tree) and other exx. in L. and S. The growing child is compared to a tree growing up and becoming crooked (note the present διαστρεφόμενον—καμπτόμενον ). Plato frequently applies the metaphors ‘crooked’, ‘warped’ and the like to victims of vice and vicious education: cf. Gorg. 525A πάντα σκολιὰ ὑπὸ ψεύδους καὶ ἀλαζονείας; Theaet. 173A σμικροὶ δὲ καὶ οὐκ ὀρθοὶ τὰς ψυχάς .

εὐθύνουσιν—πληγαῖς . Cf. Arist. Ἀθην. πολιτ . ch. 8 τοὺς ἁμαρτάνοντας ηὔθυνεν κυρία οὖσα τοῦ ζημιοῦν καὶ κολάζειν (of the Areopagitic council). For εὐθύνειν (here passing into the meaning of ‘chastise’) see note on 324A οὐδεὶς γὰρ κολάζει . To illustrate πληγαῖς Sauppe quotes the well-known line of Menander ὁ μὴ δαρεὶς ἄνθρωπος οὐ παιδεύεται .

εἰς διδασκάλων πέμποντες . It appears from 326C that there was no regular age for going to school; the parents decided in each case. Plato ordains ( Laws, VII. 809E ) that children shall learn γράμματα (i.e. reading and writing, ibid. 810B) from 10 to 13, and the lyre from 13 to 16.

πολὺ μᾶλλον—εὐκοσμίας . Protagoras' description of the aim of Athenian education agrees with the account of the Δίκαιος λόγος in the Clouds, 961 ff.

ὥσπερ τότε : above, 325C ἐπειδὰν θᾶττον συνιῇ τις τὰ λεγόμενα .

ἐπὶ τῶν βάθρων : i.e. as they sit on the benches: cf. above 315C παρατιθέασιν represents the works of the poets as intellectual food: cf. Theaet. 157C παρατίθημι ἑκάστων τῶν σοφῶν ἀπογεύσασθαι.

ποιητῶν ἀγαθῶν : Homer especially, and also Hesiod, Theognis, Phocylides. Cf. Laws, VII. 810E , from which passage it also appears that extracts were frequently made for committing to memory ( ἐκμανθάνειν ).

ἀναγκάζουσιν· μετὰ λύπης γὰρ ἡ μάθησιςArist. Pol. VIII. 1339 a . 28 (quoted by Sauppe). So Niceratus in Xenophon, Symp. III. 5 says that his father ἠνάγκασέ με πάντα τὰ Ὁμήρον ἔπη μαθεῖν .

Plato Protagoras 325

Walter Rangeley Maitland Lamb (Translator)

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