Plato, Protagoras, Walter Rangeley Maitland Lamb (Translator), 318

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To which I replied: 318a The same point, Protagoras, will serve me for a beginning as a moment ago, in regard to the object of my visit. My friend Hippocrates finds himself desirous of joining your classes; and therefore he says he would be glad to know what result he will get from joining them. That is all the speech we have to make.
Then Protagoras answered at once, saying: Young man, you will gain this by coming to my classes, that on the day when you join them you will go home a better man, and on the day after it will be the same; every day 318b you will constantly improve more and more.
When I heard this I said: Protagoras, what you say is not at all surprising, but quite likely, since even you, though so old and so wise, would be made better if someone taught you what you happen not to know. But let me put it another way: suppose Hippocrates here should change his desire all at once, and become desirous of this young fellow’s lessons who has just recently come to town, Zeuxippus of Heraclea, and should approach him, as he now does you, 318c and should hear the very same thing from him as from you,—how on each day that he spent with him he would be better and make constant progress; and suppose he were to question him on this and ask: In what shall I become better as you say, and to what will my progress be? Zeuxippus’s reply would be, to painting. Then suppose he came to the lessons of Orthagoras the Theban, and heard the same thing from him as from you, and then inquired of him for what he would be better each day through attending his classes, the answer would be, for fluting. In the same way you also must satisfy this youth and me 318d on this point, and tell us for what, Protagoras, and in what connexion my friend Hippocrates, on any day of attendance at the classes of Protagoras, will go away a better man, and on each of the succeeding days will make a like advance.
When Protagoras heard my words,— You do right, he said, to ask that, while I am only too glad to answer those who ask the right question. For Hippocrates, if he comes to me, will not be treated as he would have been if he had joined the classes of an ordinary sophist. The generality of them maltreat the young; for when they have escaped from the arts 318e they bring them back against their will and force them into arts, teaching them arithmetic and astronomy and geometry and music (and here he glanced at Hippias); whereas, if he applies to me, he will learn precisely and solely that for which he has come. That learning consists of good judgement in his own affairs, showing how best to order his own home; and in the affairs of his city, 319a showing how he may have most influence on public affairs both in speech and in action.

Protagoras. Plato. Walter Rangeley Maitland Lamb (Translator). Cambridge, MA. 1924.

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Protagoras (English) (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 2. Lamb, W.R.M., translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1924 (printing).)

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Πρωταγόρας Perseus (Platonis Opera, Tomus III: Tetralogia V-VII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1903.) — 318 focus

[318]

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318 318a
καὶ ἐγὼ εἶπον ὅτι ἡ αὐτή μοι ἀρχή ἐστιν, ὦ Πρωταγόρα, ἥπερ ἄρτι, περὶ ὧν ἀφικόμην. Ἱπποκράτης γὰρ ὅδε τυγχάνει ἐν ἐπιθυμίᾳ ὢν τῆς σῆς συνουσίας· ὅτι οὖν αὐτῷ ἀποβήσεται, ἐάν σοι συνῇ, ἡδέως ἄν φησι πυθέσθαι. τοσοῦτος ὅ γε ἡμέτερος λόγος.
ὑπολαβὼν οὖν ὁ Πρωταγόρας εἶπεν· ὦ νεανίσκε, ἔσται τοίνυν σοι, ἐὰν ἐμοὶ συνῇς, ᾗ ἂν ἡμέρᾳ ἐμοὶ συγγένῃ, ἀπιέναι οἴκαδε βελτίονι γεγονότι, καὶ ἐν τῇ ὑστεραίᾳ ταὐτὰ ταῦτα· καὶ ἑκάστης ἡμέρας ἀεὶ ἐπὶ τὸ βέλτιον ἐπιδιδόναι. 318b
καὶ ἐγὼ ἀκούσας εἶπον· ὦ Πρωταγόρα, τοῦτο μὲν οὐδὲν θαυμαστὸν λέγεις, ἀλλὰ εἰκός, ἐπεὶ κἂν σύ, καίπερ τηλικοῦτος ὢν καὶ οὕτως σοφός, εἴ τίς σε διδάξειεν ὃ μὴ τυγχάνοις ἐπιστάμενος, βελτίων ἂν γένοιο. ἀλλὰ μὴ οὕτως, ἀλλʼ ὥσπερ ἂν εἰ αὐτίκα μάλα μεταβαλὼν τὴν ἐπιθυμίαν Ἱπποκράτης ὅδε ἐπιθυμήσειεν τῆς συνουσίας τούτου τοῦ νεανίσκου τοῦ νῦν νεωστὶ ἐπιδημοῦντος, Ζευξίππου τοῦ Ἡρακλεώτου, καὶ ἀφικόμενος παρʼ αὐτόν, ὥσπερ παρὰ σὲ 318c νῦν, ἀκούσειεν αὐτοῦ ταὐτὰ ταῦτα ἅπερ σοῦ, ὅτι ἑκάστης ἡμέρας συνὼν αὐτῷ βελτίων ἔσται καὶ ἐπιδώσει, εἰ αὐτὸν ἐπανέροιτο· τί δὴ φῂς βελτίω ἔσεσθαι καὶ εἰς τί ἐπιδώσειν; εἴποι ἂν αὐτῷ ὁ Ζεύξιππος ὅτι πρὸς γραφικήν· κἂν εἰ Ὀρθαγόρᾳ τῷ Θηβαίῳ συγγενόμενος, ἀκούσας ἐκείνου ταὐτὰ ταῦτα ἅπερ σοῦ, ἐπανέροιτο αὐτὸν εἰς ὅτι βελτίων καθʼ ἡμέραν ἔσται συγγιγνόμενος ἐκείνῳ, εἴποι ἂν ὅτι εἰς αὔλησιν· οὕτω δὴ καὶ σὺ εἰπὲ τῷ νεανίσκῳ καὶ ἐμοὶ ὑπὲρ 318d τούτου ἐρωτῶντι, Ἱπποκράτης ὅδε Πρωταγόρᾳ συγγενόμενος, ᾗ ἂν αὐτῷ ἡμέρᾳ συγγένηται, βελτίων ἄπεισι γενόμενος καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἡμερῶν ἑκάστης οὕτως ἐπιδώσει εἰς τί, ὦ Πρωταγόρα, καὶ περὶ τοῦ;
καὶ ὁ Πρωταγόρας ἐμοῦ ταῦτα ἀκούσας, σύ τε καλῶς ἐρωτᾷς, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες, καὶ ἐγὼ τοῖς καλῶς ἐρωτῶσι χαίρω ἀποκρινόμενος. Ἱπποκράτης γὰρ παρʼ ἐμὲ ἀφικόμενος οὐ πείσεται ἅπερ ἂν ἔπαθεν ἄλλῳ τῳ συγγενόμενος τῶν σοφιστῶν. οἱ μὲν γὰρ ἄλλοι λωβῶνται τοὺς νέους· 318e τὰς γὰρ τέχνας αὐτοὺς πεφευγότας ἄκοντας πάλιν αὖ ἄγοντες ἐμβάλλουσιν εἰς τέχνας, λογισμούς τε καὶ ἀστρονομίαν καὶ γεωμετρίαν καὶ μουσικὴν διδάσκοντες—καὶ ἅμα εἰς τὸν Ἱππίαν ἀπέβλεψεν— παρὰ δʼ ἐμὲ ἀφικόμενος μαθήσεται οὐ περὶ ἄλλου του ἢ περὶ οὗ ἥκει. τὸ δὲ μάθημά ἐστιν εὐβουλία περὶ τῶν οἰκείων, ὅπως ἂν ἄριστα τὴν αὑτοῦ οἰκίαν διοικοῖ, 319 319a καὶ περὶ τῶν τῆς πόλεως, ὅπως τὰ τῆς πόλεως δυνατώτατος ἂν εἴη καὶ πράττειν καὶ λέγειν.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Protagoras (Plato. Platonis Protagoras. Adam, James; Adam, Adela Marion, editors. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1921.) focus

γάρ used like Latin enim to introduce a speech (introductory γάρ ): see on Apol. 20E .

ὅ τι—ἀποβήσεται—πυθέσθαι . For the situation cf. Gorg. 455C -D, where Socrates says ἴσως γὰρ καὶ τυγχάνει τις τῶν ἔνδον ὄντων μαθητής σου βουλόμενος γενέσθαι, ὡς ἐγώ τινας σχεδὸν καὶ συχνοὺς αἰσθάνομαι, οἳ ἴσως αἰσχύνοιντ’ ἄν σε ἀνεπέσθαι· ὑρ’ ἐμοῦ οὖν ἀνεπωτώμενος νόμισον καὶ ὑρ’ ἐκείνων ἀνεπωτᾶσθαι· τί ἡμῖν, ὦ Γοπγία, ἔσται, ἐάν σοι συνῶμεν; ρεπὶ τίνων τῇ ρόλει συμβουλεύειν οἶοί τε ἐσόμεθα ;

ἐν τῇ ὑστεραίᾳ ταὐτὰ ταῦτα : sc. ἔσται σοι. ἐν (bracketed by Schanz after Hirschig) before τῇ ὑστεραίᾳ means ‘during’: cf. (with Kroschel) Thuc. I. 44. 1 τῇ μὲν προτέρᾳ οὐχ ἧσσον—ἀπεδέξαντο τοὺς λόγους, ἐν δὲ τῇ ὑστεραίᾳ μετέγνωσαν κτλ. and add below 321C ἡ εἱμαρμένη ἡμέρα παρῆν, ἐν ᾗ ἔδει καὶ ἄνθρωπον ἐξιέναι ἐκ γῆς .

ὃ μὴ τυγχάνεις ἐπιστάμενος. τυγχάνοις(suggested by Bekker) would be the usual periodic structure: but the indicative is looser and more direct: Kroschel compares Gorg. 464D εἰ δέοι—διαγωνίζεσθαι—πότερος ἐπαίει. Notice the usual Socratic implication that virtue is knowledge.

ἀλλὰ μὴ οὕτως . Cf. Meno, 74D ἀλλὰ μή μοι οὕτωςand below 331C So μὴ γάρ, μὴ σύ γε, μή τοί γε and the like are often used without a verb expressed. ὥσπερ ἄν belongs to εἴποι ἄν in ll. 26 and 30: it is answered by οὕτω δή in l. 31. αὐτίκα here does not mean ‘for example’ but goes with μάλα (which intensifies it): ‘as if Hippocrates were to change his desire on the spot and conceive a desire ( ἐπιθυμήσειεν ) for etc.’ αὐτίκα μάλα is idiomatic, cf. Gorg. 469D αὐτίκα μάλα δεῖν τεθνάναι, Crat. 384B αὐτίκα μάλα εἰδέναι.

νῦν νεωστί : nunc nuper as in Meno, 90A . The more general word is followed by the more specific exactly as in Theaet. 161C βατράχου γυρίνου, where γυρῖνος according to a scholiast is τὸ ἐκ τοῦ βατράχου παιδίον .

Ζευξίππου . An obscure sculptor (not painter) of this name is mentioned in Corp Inscr. Gr. No. 1229 (quoted by Overbeck, Die Antiken Schriftquellen zur Geschichte der bildenden Künste bei den Griechen, p. 300). The Zeuxippus here mentioned is supposed to be the same as the famous painter Zeuxis of Heraclea (the Greek colony in Italy, most probably) who is mentioned by Plato in Gorg. 453C , and several times by Xenophon ( Mem. I. 4. 3, Oecon. 10. 1, Symp. 4. 63 τὸν Ἡρακλεώτην ξένον ): see Overbeck, pp. 311 ff. Zeuxis began to rise into fame probably about 424 B.C.: he would therefore be still a young man about the date when this dialogue is supposed to take place: see Introduction, p. xxxiii. Brunn would read Ζεύξιδος for Ζευξίππου here, but according to Fick (quoted by Sauppe) Ζεῦξις is nothing but a familiar diminutive of Ζεύξιππος : for other similar examples see Fick, Die Griechischen Personennamen, pp. xxviii ff. ‐ιππος in proper names was aristocratic ( Ar. Clouds, 62 ff. ) and could upon occasion be omitted or added without prejudice to personal identity: cf. Clouds, 929 οὐχὶ διδάξεις τοῦτον Κρόνος ὤνwith ibid. 1071 σὺ δ’ εἶ κρόνιππος , where ‐ιππος adds mock dignity to κρόνος .

Ὀρθαγόρᾳ τῷ Θηβαίῳ . Orthagoras is said by Athenaeus (IV. 184E) on the authority of Aristoxenus to have taught Epaminondas how to play the flute.

αὐτόν but ἐκείνου in 28 and ἐκείνω? in 30: see on 310D εἰς ὅ τι βελτίων is here used rather than ὅ τι or τί βελτίων (as in l. 25) to prepare for εἰς αὔλησιν , where the preposition could hardly be dispensed with.

οὕτω δή . Heindorf would write οὕτω δέ , which is frequent after ὥσπερ , e.g. 328A see his note on Phaedo, 72C .

Πρωταγόρᾳ συγγενόμενος : ‘gravius hoc quam σοὶ συγγενόμενος ’ (Kroschel). See also note on 335A

λωβῶνται is here rather κακῶς ποιεῖν than κακὸν ποιεῖν , although (like κακουργεῖν, λυμαίνομαι and the like) it unites both meanings: cf. Rep. I. 335 B ff., and see on Euthyphr. 3A κακουργεῖν τὴν πόλιν. With the words of Protagoras compare those of Anytus in Meno, 91C Ἡράκλεις, εὐφήμει, ὦ Σώκρατες, μηδένα τῶν συγγενῶν, μήτε οἰκείων μήτε φίλων, μήτε ἀστὸν μήτε ξένον, τοιαύτη μανία λάβοι, ὥστε ραπὰ τούτους ἐλθόντα λωβηθῆναι, ἐρεὶ οὗτοί γε φανερά ἐστι λώβη τε καὶ διεφθορὰ τῶν συγγιγνομένων.

τὰς γὰρ τέχνας—ἐμβάλλουσιν εἰς τέχνας. τέχναιis used of Arithmetic, Geometry, Solid Geometry and Harmonics in Rep. VII. 532C : elsewhere in Plato αἱ τέχναι generally means the mechanical arts, e.g. Rep. VI. 495D and VII. 522B. Here τέχναι can only mean the subjects taught in schools ( γραμματική, λογιστική, κιθαριστική ), as Sauppe remarks, but there seems to be no precise parallel to such a use of the word.

εἰς τὸν Ἱππίαν ἀπέβλεψεν : see on 314B

εὐβουλία περὶ τῶν οἰκείων. The editors quote Meno, 91A οὗτος γὰρ—πάλαι λέγει πρός με ὅτι ἐπιθυμεῖ ταύτης τῆς σοφίας καὶ ἀπετῆς ᾗ οἱ ἄνθπωροι τάς τε οἰκίας καὶ τὰς ρόλεις καλῶς διοικοῦσι, καὶ τοὺς γονέας τοὺς αὑτῶν θεπαρεύουσι, καὶ ρολίτας καὶ ξένους ὑποδέξασθαί τε καὶ ἀποπέμψαι ἐπίστανται ἀξίως ἀνδρὸς ἀγαθοῦ ; Euthyd. 273D ἀρετὴν—ὦ Σώκρατες, οἰόμεθα οἵω τ’ εἴναι παραδοῦναι κάλλιστ’ ἀνθρώπων καὶ τάχιστα.

ἄνδρας ἀγαθοὺς πολίτας forms a single expression: ‘good citizens’ are the ἔργον of πολιτικὴ τέχνη . So Ar. Knights, 1304 ἅνδρα μοχθηρὸν πολίτην.

ἐπάγγελμα ὃ ἐπαγγέλλομαι. ἐπαγγέλλομαιand its derivatives are often used of sophistic ‘professions’.

οὐκ ἔχω ὅπως ἀπιστῶ . The MSS. reading ὅπως ἄν ἀπιστῶ was corrected by Heindorf, ὅπως ἄν with the subjunctive being only used in final clauses. The subjunctive is deliberative: cf. Euthyphr. 11B οὐκ ἔχω ἔγωγε ὅπως σοι εἴπω ὃ νοῶ.

οὐ διδακτὸν—μηδὲ, οὐnegatives διδακτόν only, μηδέ the whole of its clause: a similar case is Eur. Andr. 586 δρᾶν εὖ, κακῶς δ’ οὔ, μηδ’ ἀποκτείνειν βίᾳ. μή after verbs of thinking and saying is tolerably common in Plato. See on Euthyphr. 6B ὁμολογοῦμεν περὶ αὐτῶν μηδὲν εἰδέναι.

ὥσπερ καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι Ἕλληνες , sc. φασί . Cf. 337D where Hippias calls Athens τῆς Ἑλλάδος αὐτὸ τὸ πρυτανεῖον τῆς σοφίας : a somewhat less favourable judgement is given in Laws, I. 641E τὴν πόλιν ἅπαντες ἡμῶν Ἕλληνες ὑπολαμβάνουσιν ὡς φιλόλογός τέ ἐστι καὶ ρολύλογος, Λακεδαίμονα δὲ καὶ Κπήτην, τὴν μὲν βπαχύλογον, τὴν δὲ πολύνοιαν μᾶλλον ἢ πολυλογίαν ἀσκοῦσαν.

μεταπεμπομένους is probably middle: Plato does not seem to use μεταπέμπειv in the sense of ‘send for’ (like Thucydides, e.g. I. 112. 3 Ἀμυρταίου μεταπέμποντος τοῦ ἐν τοῖς ἕλεσι βασιλέως : VI. 52. 1 et al. ). The subject is τοὺς πολίτας to be supplied from τὴν πόλιν . Cf. Gorg. 455B ff. ὅταν περὶ ἰατρῶν αἱπέσεως ᾖ τῇ ρόλει σύλλογος ἢ ρεπὶ ναυρηγῶν ἢ ρεπὶ ἄλλου τινὸς δημιουπγικοῦ ἔθνους, ἄλλο τι ἢ τότε ὁ π(ητοπικὸς οὐ συμβουλεύσει; δῆλον γὰρ ὅτι ἐν ἑκάστῃ αἱρέσει τὸν τεχνικώτατον δεῖ αἱρεῖσθαι and Alc. I, 107A-C. Kroschel well remarks that the words περὶ τῶν οἰκοδομημάτων (which Hirschig wrongly rejects) are added to show that it is only about the actual buildings that the builders are consulted, ‘non de necessitate, utilitate, magnitudine’, as to which the orators advise: cf. Gorg. 455D .

κἂν πάνυ καλὸς ᾖ κτλ. Imitated in Alc. I, 107B and C: ἐάν τέ γε σμικρὸς ἢ μέγας ᾖ, ἐάν τε καλὸς ἢ αἰσχρός, ἔτι τε γενναῖος ἢ ἀγεννής, πῶς γὰρ οὔ;—ἀλλ’ ἄν τε πένης ἄν τε πλούσιος ᾖ ὁ παραινῶν, οὐδὲν διοίσει Ἀθηναίοις, ὅταν ρεπὶ τῶν ἐν τῇ ρόλει βουλεύωνται, ρῶς ἂν ὑγιαίνοιεν, ἀλλὰ ζητοῦσιν ἰατρὸν εἶναι τὸν σύμβουλον .

οἱ τοξόται . The τοξόται (bowmen) or Σκύθαι (so called from their nationality) or Πευσίνιοι (from one Πευσίς who according to the schol. on Ar. Ach. 54 had the chief hand in establishing them) were the police. ἕλκω was regularly used of removing an offending orator: e.g. Ar. Knights, 665 κᾆθ’ εἷλκον αὐτὸν οἱ πρυτάνεις χοἰ τοξόται.

ἐξαίρωνται . So T (B has ἐξέρωνται ): the present is perhaps due to tense-assimilation to κελευόντων . The active αἴρειν is used in the same connection by Ar. Eccl. 261 ἡμεῖς δέ γ’ ἢν αἴρωσ’(sc. οἱ τοξόται ), ἐᾶν κελεύσομεν , but no exact parallel for the use of the middle has yet been found—the nearest seems to be Eur. I. T. 1201 οὐ γάρ ποτ’ ἄν νιν ἠράμην βάθρων ἄπο : cf. Ar. Ach. 1140 τὴν ἀσπίδ’ αἴρου καὶ βάδιζ’ ὦ παῖ λαβών ; ibid. 953.

περὶ τῶν τῆς πόλεως διοικήσεως . So B and T, but in both the copyist had doubts as to the text. It is usual to drop either τῶν or διοικήσεως : Kroschel transposes τῶν and περί . Sauppe retains the MSS. reading, making περὶ govern διοικήσεως —but this is very harsh. τὰ τῆς πόλεως διοικήσεως is a periphrasis for ἡ πόλεως διοίκησις (for the omission of the article with πόλεως cf. Polit. 296E τοῦτον δεῖ καὶ περὶ ταῦτα τὸν ὄρον εἶναι τόν γε ἀληθινώτατον ὀπθῆς ρόλεως διοικήσεως, ὃν ὁ σοφὸς καὶ ἀγαθὸς ἀνὴρ διοικήσει τὸ τῶν ἀρχομένων ), ‘the city's administration’ being contrasted with τῶν ἐν τέχνῃ διοίκησις . The whole phrase περὶ τῶν τῆς πόλεως διοικήσεως corresponds to 318E καὶ ρεπὶ τῶν τῆς ρόλεως, ὅρως τὰ τῆς ρόλεως δυνατώτατος ἂν εἴη καὶ πράττειν καὶ λέγειν .

ἀνιστάμενος . The audience sat in the assembly: cf. Rep. VI. 492B ὅταν, εἶπον, ξυγκαθεζόμενοι ἁθρόοι πολλοὶ εἰς ἐκκλησίας— ψέγωσι κτλ.

μαθών . Heindorf quotes many cases of the transition from plural to singular in Plato (e.g. below, 324B : the change is justified here because in each case the reproach would be addressed to a single person.

μὴ τοίνυν ὅτι—ἀλλὰ ἰδίᾳ . See on Apol. 40D οἶμαι ἂν μὴ ὅτι ἰδιώτην τινά, ἀλλὰ τὸν μέγαν βασιλέα κτλ.

οὐχ οιοί τε ἄλλοις παραδιδόναι . Plato comments on the inability of statesmen to teach their sons political sagacity in Meno, 93B ff., citing Themistocles, Aristides, Pericles and Thucydides as cases in point. Cf. Alc. I, 118E ff.

ἃ μὲν διδασκάλων εἴχετο . The phrase is used by Plato in the other passages where he deals with this topic: cf, below, 324D Meno, 93D and 94A.

Plato Protagoras 318

Walter Rangeley Maitland Lamb (Translator)

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