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Φειδιππίδης

ὡς ἡδὺ καινοῖς πράγμασιν καὶ δεξιοῖς ὁμιλεῖν,

καὶ τῶν καθεστώτων νόμων ὑπερφρονεῖν δύνασθαι.
1400

ἐγὼ γὰρ ὅτε μὲν ἱππικῇ τὸν νοῦν μόνῃ προσεῖχον,

οὐδʼ ἂν τρίʼ εἰπεῖν ῥήμαθʼ οἷός τʼ ἦν πρὶν ἐξαμαρτεῖν·

νυνὶ δʼ ἐπειδή μʼ οὑτοσὶ τούτων ἔπαυσεν αὐτός,

γνώμαις δὲ λεπταῖς καὶ λόγοις ξύνειμι καὶ μερίμναις,

οἶμαι διδάξειν ὡς δίκαιον τὸν πατέρα κολάζειν.
1405

Στρεψιάδης

ἵππευε τοίνυν νὴ Δίʼ, ὡς ἔμοιγε κρεῖττόν ἐστιν

ἵππων τρέφειν τέθριππον ἢ τυπτόμενον ἐπιτριβῆναι.

Φειδιππίδης

ἐκεῖσε δʼ ὅθεν ἀπέσχισάς με τοῦ λόγου μέτειμι,

καὶ πρῶτʼ ἐρήσομαί σε τουτί· παῖδά μʼ ὄντʼ ἔτυπτες;

Στρεψιάδης

ἔγωγέ σʼ εὐνοῶν τε καὶ κηδόμενος.
1410

Φειδιππίδης

εἰπὲ δή μοι,

οὐ κἀμέ σοι δίκαιόν ἐστιν εὐνοεῖν ὁμοίως

τύπτειν τʼ, ἐπειδήπερ γε τοῦτʼ ἐστʼ εὐνοεῖν τὸ τύπτειν;

πῶς γὰρ τὸ μὲν σὸν σῶμα χρὴ πληγῶν ἀθῷον εἶναι,

τοὐμὸν δὲ μή; καὶ μὴν ἔφυν ἐλεύθερός γε κἀγώ.

κλάουσι παῖδες, πατέρα δʼ οὐ κλάειν δοκεῖς;
1415

φήσεις νομίζεσθαι σὺ παιδὸς τοῦτο τοὔργον εἶναι·

ἐγὼ δέ γʼ ἀντείποιμʼ ἂν ὡς δὶς παῖδες οἱ γέροντες·

εἰκὸς δὲ μᾶλλον τοὺς γέροντας ἢ νέους τι κλάειν,

ὅσῳπερ ἐξαμαρτάνειν ἧττον δίκαιον αὐτούς.

Στρεψιάδης

ἀλλʼ οὐδαμοῦ νομίζεται τὸν πατέρα τοῦτο πάσχειν.
1420

Φειδιππίδης

οὔκουν ἀνὴρ ὁ τὸν νόμον θεὶς τοῦτον ἦν τὸ πρῶτον

ὥσπερ σὺ κἀγώ, καὶ λέγων ἔπειθε τοὺς παλαιούς;

ἧττόν τι δῆτʼ ἔξεστι κἀμοὶ καινὸν αὖ τὸ λοιπὸν

θεῖναι νόμον τοῖς υἱέσιν, τοὺς πατέρας ἀντιτύπτειν;

ὅσας δὲ πληγὰς εἴχομεν πρὶν τὸν νόμον τεθῆναι,
1425

ἀφίεμεν, καὶ δίδομεν αὐτοῖς προῖκα συγκεκόφθαι.

σκέψαι δὲ τοὺς ἀλεκτρυόνας καὶ τἄλλα τὰ βοτὰ ταυτί,

ὡς τοὺς πατέρας ἀμύνεται· καίτοι τί διαφέρουσιν

ἡμῶν ἐκεῖνοι, πλήν γʼ ὅτι ψηφίσματʼ οὐ γράφουσιν;

Στρεψιάδης

τί δῆτʼ, ἐπειδὴ τοὺς ἀλεκτρυόνας ἅπαντα μιμεῖ,
1430

οὐκ ἐσθίεις καὶ τὴν κόπρον κἀπὶ ξύλου καθεύδεις;

Φειδιππίδης

οὐ ταὐτὸν ὦ τᾶν ἐστίν, οὐδʼ ἂν Σωκράτει δοκοίη.

Στρεψιάδης

πρὸς ταῦτα μὴ τύπτʼ· εἰ δὲ μή, σαυτόν ποτʼ αἰτιάσει.

Φειδιππίδης

καὶ πῶς;

Στρεψιάδης

ἐπεὶ σὲ μὲν δίκαιός εἰμʼ ἐγὼ κολάζειν,

σὺ δʼ, ἢν γένηταί σοι, τὸν υἱόν.
1435

Φειδιππίδης

ἢν δὲ μὴ γένηται,

μάτην ἐμοὶ κεκλαύσεται, σὺ δʼ ἐγχανὼν τεθνήξεις.

Clouds. Aristophanes. ed. F. W. Hall, ed. William M. Geldart. Oxford. 1906.

Sponsored by Perseus Project, Tufts University.

Funding provided by The Annenberg CPB/Project.

Current edition Perseus

Νεφέλαι (Greek) (Aristophanes. Aristophanis Comoediae, Vol. 1. Hall, F. W. and Geldart, William M., editors. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1906.)

Translations (2)

Clouds Perseus (Aristophanes. The Comedies of Aristophanes, Vol. I. Hickie, William James, translator. Bohn: London, 1853.) — 1399 focus

Phidippides.

How pleasant it is to be acquainted with new and clever things,

and to be able to despise the established laws! For I, when I applied my mind to horsemanship alone, used not to be able to utter three words before I made a mistake; but now, since he himself has made me cease from these pursuits, and I am acquainted with subtle thoughts, and arguments, and speculations,
1400

I think I shall demonstrate that it is just to chastise one’s father.
1405

Strepsiades.

Ride, then, by Jupiter! Since it is better for me to keep a team of four horses than to be killed with a beating.

Phidippides.

I will pass over to that part of my discourse where you interrupted me; and first I will ask you this: Did you beat me when I was a boy?

Strepsiades.

I did, through good-will and concern for you.
1410

Phidippides.

Pray tell me, is it not just that I also should be well inclined toward you in the same way, and beat you, since this is to be well inclined-to give a beating? For why ought your body to be exempt from blows and mine not? And yet I too was born free.

The boys weep, and do you not think it is right that a father should weep? You will say that it is ordained by law that this should be the lot of boys. But I would reply, that old men are boys twice over, and that it is the more reasonable that the old should weep than the young, inasmuch as it is less just that they should err.
1415

Strepsiades.

It is nowhere ordained by law that a father should suffer this.
1420

Phidippides.

Was it not then a man like you and me, who first proposed this law, and by speaking persuaded the ancients? Why then is it less lawful for me also in turn to propose henceforth a new law for the sons, that they should beat their fathers in turn?

But as many blows as we received before the law was made, we remit: and we concede to them our having been thrashed without return. Observe the cocks and these other animals, how they punish their fathers; and yet, in what do they differ from us, except that they do not write decrees?
1425

Strepsiades.

Why then, since you imitate the cocks in all things, do you not both eat dung and sleep on a perch?
1430

Phidippides.

It is not the same thing, my friend; nor would it appear so to Socrates.

Strepsiades.

Therefore do not beat me; otherwise you will one day blame yourself.

Phidippides.

Why, how?

Strepsiades.

Since I am justly entitled to chastise you; and you to chastise your son, if you should have one.

Phidippides.

But if I should not have one, I shall have wept for nothing, and you will die laughing at me.

English (Sanjaya, generated; selected passages) (OCR draft) Experimental (Source: pnadelofficial/aristophanes-sanjaya, commit c319590c139e5603e71f0699caa0663d823af8ad. Machine-generated source annotations retained; see Sanjaya import audit for coverage and limitations.) — 1399 focus

Pheidippides: How sweet it is to converse with new and clever things,

Pheidippides: and to be able to despise the established laws.

1400

Pheidippides: For when I was paying attention to the mind solely with horsemanship,

Pheidippides: He was not even able to speak three words before he made a mistake;

Pheidippides: Now, since this man himself has stopped me from these things,

Pheidippides: but I am at home with subtle opinions and arguments and worries,

Pheidippides: I think I will teach that it is just to punish one's father.

1405

Strepsiades: So ride, by Zeus, as it is better for me.

Strepsiades: 'Whether to rear a four-horse chariot or to be beaten by a thrashing.'

Pheidippides: From there, from where you cut me off from the argument, I shall return.

Pheidippides: And first I will ask you this: did you beat me, though I was a boy?

Strepsiades: I, wishing you well and taking care of you.

1410

Pheidippides: tell me then,

Pheidippides: It is not just for you that I am to be well-disposed equally.

Pheidippides: to strike, then, since indeed to strike is to be well-disposed?

Pheidippides: for how is it necessary for your body to be free from blows,

Pheidippides: What about mine? And indeed, I was born free too.

Pheidippides: the children are weeping, but do you not think that the father is not weeping?

1415

Pheidippides: You will be thought to have done this, as the work of a boy.

Pheidippides: But I would retort that the old men are twice [as much] children;

Pheidippides: it is more likely that the old men than the young should weep at something,

Pheidippides: The less they are wrong, the more just it is for them.

Strepsiades: But it is not considered anywhere for a father to suffer this.

1420

Pheidippides: Then the man who laid down this law was not originally so.

Pheidippides: Just as you and I, did you persuade the ancients even while speaking?

Pheidippides: Then surely it is also allowed for me, from now on, something new again.

Pheidippides: to strike down the law that sons should strike back at their fathers?

Pheidippides: How many blows we had before the law was established,

1425

Pheidippides: We give them up, and we give them freely to be hacked up.

Pheidippides: Consider the roosters and the rest of these beasts,

Pheidippides: how he defends his fathers; and yet, what difference do they make?

Pheidippides: Those are ours, except that they do not write decrees?

Strepsiades: But why, since you imitate all the roosters,

1430

Strepsiades: You don't eat, and you sleep on dung and on wood?

Pheidippides: It is not the same thing, by the goddesses, nor would it even seem so to Socrates.

Strepsiades: For these things, do not strike; but if you do not, you will blame yourself.

Pheidippides: And how?

Strepsiades: Since I am just in punishing you,

Strepsiades: But you, if it happens to you, [will have] the son.

1435

Pheidippides: But if it does not happen,

Pheidippides: In vain will he weep for me, but you will die in a fainting fit.

Commentary

Commentary (Sanjaya, generated; selected passages) (OCR draft) (Source: pnadelofficial/aristophanes-sanjaya, commit c319590c139e5603e71f0699caa0663d823af8ad. Machine-generated source annotations retained; see Sanjaya import audit for coverage and limitations.) focus

1407. mvp-tlg0019-tlg003-sanjaya-com-eng1-97

Line 1407

ἵππων τρέφειν τέθριππον ἢ τυπτόμενον ἐπιτριβῆναι.

The phrase τυπτόμενον ἐπιτριβῆναι presents a striking syntactic and semantic difficulty: τυπτόμενον (a present middle/passive participle of τυπτω) typically means 'being struck' or 'beaten', yet here it modifies the action of ἐπιτριβῆναι ('to be rubbed upon'). This construction implies a paradoxical image of a horse being 'rubbed while being struck,' which has led scholars to conjecture that τυπτόμενον may be a corruption of τριβόμενον ('being rubbed') or that the text preserves a deliberate, ironic wordplay on the physical abuse of the horse in the training regimen. The ambiguity is significant because it touches on the literal versus metaphorical understanding of the horse's suffering in the context of the Sophists' absurd teachings.

Aristophanes Clouds 1399

ed. F. W. Hall, ed. William M. Geldart

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Στρεψιάδης

ἵππευε τοίνυν νὴ Δίʼ, ὡς ἔμοιγε κρεῖττόν ἐστιν

ἵππων τρέφειν τέθριππον ἢ τυπτόμενον ἐπιτριβῆναι.

Φειδιππίδης

ἐκεῖσε δʼ ὅθεν ἀπέσχισάς με τοῦ λόγου μέτειμι,

καὶ πρῶτʼ ἐρήσομαί σε τουτί· παῖδά μʼ ὄντʼ ἔτυπτες;

Στρεψιάδης

ἔγωγέ σʼ εὐνοῶν τε καὶ κηδόμενος.
1410

Στρεψιάδης

ἀλλʼ οὐδαμοῦ νομίζεται τὸν πατέρα τοῦτο πάσχειν.
1420

Στρεψιάδης

τί δῆτʼ, ἐπειδὴ τοὺς ἀλεκτρυόνας ἅπαντα μιμεῖ,
1430

οὐκ ἐσθίεις καὶ τὴν κόπρον κἀπὶ ξύλου καθεύδεις;

Φειδιππίδης

οὐ ταὐτὸν ὦ τᾶν ἐστίν, οὐδʼ ἂν Σωκράτει δοκοίη.

Στρεψιάδης

πρὸς ταῦτα μὴ τύπτʼ· εἰ δὲ μή, σαυτόν ποτʼ αἰτιάσει.

Φειδιππίδης

καὶ πῶς;

Στρεψιάδης

ἐπεὶ σὲ μὲν δίκαιός εἰμʼ ἐγὼ κολάζειν,

σὺ δʼ, ἢν γένηταί σοι, τὸν υἱόν.
1435

Φειδιππίδης

ἢν δὲ μὴ γένηται,

μάτην ἐμοὶ κεκλαύσεται, σὺ δʼ ἐγχανὼν τεθνήξεις.

Current edition Perseus

Strepsiades.

Ride, then, by Jupiter! Since it is better for me to keep a team of four horses than to be killed with a beating.

Phidippides.

I will pass over to that part of my discourse where you interrupted me; and first I will ask you this: Did you beat me when I was a boy?

Strepsiades.

I did, through good-will and concern for you.
1410

Strepsiades.

It is nowhere ordained by law that a father should suffer this.
1420

Strepsiades.

Why then, since you imitate the cocks in all things, do you not both eat dung and sleep on a perch?
1430

Phidippides.

It is not the same thing, my friend; nor would it appear so to Socrates.

Strepsiades.

Therefore do not beat me; otherwise you will one day blame yourself.

Phidippides.

Why, how?

Strepsiades.

Since I am justly entitled to chastise you; and you to chastise your son, if you should have one.

Phidippides.

But if I should not have one, I shall have wept for nothing, and you will die laughing at me.

Commentary

Line 1407

Stable identifiers

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Search the Perseus Catalog for:

Στρεψιάδης ἵππευε τοίνυν νὴ Δίʼ, ὡς ἔμοιγε κρεῖττόν ἐστιν ἵππων τρέφειν τέθριππον ἢ τυπτόμενον ἐπιτριβῆναι.

Φειδιππίδης ἐκεῖσε δʼ ὅθεν ἀπέσχισάς με τοῦ λόγου μέτειμι, καὶ πρῶτʼ ἐρήσομαί σε τουτί· παῖδά μʼ ὄντʼ ἔτυπτες;

Στρεψιάδης ἔγωγέ σʼ εὐνοῶν τε καὶ κηδόμενος. 1410

Στρεψιάδης ἀλλʼ οὐδαμοῦ νομίζεται τὸν πατέρα τοῦτο πάσχειν. 1420

Στρεψιάδης τί δῆτʼ, ἐπειδὴ τοὺς ἀλεκτρυόνας ἅπαντα μιμεῖ, 1430 οὐκ ἐσθίεις καὶ τὴν κόπρον κἀπὶ ξύλου καθεύδεις;

Φειδιππίδης οὐ ταὐτὸν ὦ τᾶν ἐστίν, οὐδʼ ἂν Σωκράτει δοκοίη.

Στρεψιάδης πρὸς ταῦτα μὴ τύπτʼ· εἰ δὲ μή, σαυτόν ποτʼ αἰτιάσει.

Φειδιππίδης καὶ πῶς;

Στρεψιάδης ἐπεὶ σὲ μὲν δίκαιός εἰμʼ ἐγὼ κολάζειν, σὺ δʼ, ἢν γένηταί σοι, τὸν υἱόν. 1435

Φειδιππίδης ἢν δὲ μὴ γένηται, μάτην ἐμοὶ κεκλαύσεται, σὺ δʼ ἐγχανὼν τεθνήξεις.

Current edition Perseus

Strepsiades. Ride, then, by Jupiter! Since it is better for me to keep a team of four horses than to be killed with a beating.

Phidippides. I will pass over to that part of my discourse where you interrupted me; and first I will ask you this: Did you beat me when I was a boy?

Strepsiades. I did, through good-will and concern for you. 1410

Strepsiades. It is nowhere ordained by law that a father should suffer this. 1420

Strepsiades. Why then, since you imitate the cocks in all things, do you not both eat dung and sleep on a perch? 1430

Phidippides. It is not the same thing, my friend; nor would it appear so to Socrates.

Strepsiades. Therefore do not beat me; otherwise you will one day blame yourself.

Phidippides. Why, how?

Strepsiades. Since I am justly entitled to chastise you; and you to chastise your son, if you should have one.

Phidippides. But if I should not have one, I shall have wept for nothing, and you will die laughing at me.

Commentary

Line 1407

Stable identifiers

Στρεψιάδης

ἵππευε τοίνυν νὴ Δίʼ, ὡς ἔμοιγε κρεῖττόν ἐστιν

ἵππων τρέφειν τέθριππον ἢ τυπτόμενον ἐπιτριβῆναι.

Φειδιππίδης

ἐκεῖσε δʼ ὅθεν ἀπέσχισάς με τοῦ λόγου μέτειμι,

καὶ πρῶτʼ ἐρήσομαί σε τουτί· παῖδά μʼ ὄντʼ ἔτυπτες;

Στρεψιάδης

ἔγωγέ σʼ εὐνοῶν τε καὶ κηδόμενος.
1410

Στρεψιάδης

ἀλλʼ οὐδαμοῦ νομίζεται τὸν πατέρα τοῦτο πάσχειν.
1420

Στρεψιάδης

τί δῆτʼ, ἐπειδὴ τοὺς ἀλεκτρυόνας ἅπαντα μιμεῖ,
1430

οὐκ ἐσθίεις καὶ τὴν κόπρον κἀπὶ ξύλου καθεύδεις;

Φειδιππίδης

οὐ ταὐτὸν ὦ τᾶν ἐστίν, οὐδʼ ἂν Σωκράτει δοκοίη.

Στρεψιάδης

πρὸς ταῦτα μὴ τύπτʼ· εἰ δὲ μή, σαυτόν ποτʼ αἰτιάσει.

Φειδιππίδης

καὶ πῶς;

Στρεψιάδης

ἐπεὶ σὲ μὲν δίκαιός εἰμʼ ἐγὼ κολάζειν,

σὺ δʼ, ἢν γένηταί σοι, τὸν υἱόν.
1435

Φειδιππίδης

ἢν δὲ μὴ γένηται,

μάτην ἐμοὶ κεκλαύσεται, σὺ δʼ ἐγχανὼν τεθνήξεις.

Strepsiades.

Ride, then, by Jupiter! Since it is better for me to keep a team of four horses than to be killed with a beating.

Phidippides.

I will pass over to that part of my discourse where you interrupted me; and first I will ask you this: Did you beat me when I was a boy?

Strepsiades.

I did, through good-will and concern for you.
1410

Strepsiades.

It is nowhere ordained by law that a father should suffer this.
1420

Strepsiades.

Why then, since you imitate the cocks in all things, do you not both eat dung and sleep on a perch?
1430

Phidippides.

It is not the same thing, my friend; nor would it appear so to Socrates.

Strepsiades.

Therefore do not beat me; otherwise you will one day blame yourself.

Phidippides.

Why, how?

Strepsiades.

Since I am justly entitled to chastise you; and you to chastise your son, if you should have one.

Phidippides.

But if I should not have one, I shall have wept for nothing, and you will die laughing at me.