Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Adolf Wahrmund (Translator), 5.105

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Athener: „Was das Wohlwollen der Götter betrifft,
so glauben auch wir, daß wir nicht-im Nachtheil-sein werden; denn
wir verlangen und thun Nichts, was. außer der menschlichen Art
liegt, weder in Bezug auf den Glauben an die Götter, noch auch in
dem, was die Menschen für sich selbst wünschen. Wir glauben, daß
die Gottheit nach menschlichem Dafürhalten regiere, wir wissen aber,
daß die Menschen sichtlich aus. einem Zwange der Natur das
beherrschen, worüber sie Macht gewinnen-können; dieß Gesetz haben wir
weder.'selber gegeben, noch' auch-sind wir die Ersten,.die sich nach
seinem Bestehen richten;-wir haben es bestehend vorgefunden und
werden eS auch für .alle'Zeiten bestehend zurücklassen, und so
handeln wir danach .und. wissen recht gut, daß auch ihr und jeder
Andere, der gleiche Macht mit uns-erringt, ebenso.handeln würde.
Was also die Götter betrifft, so sind wir ganz im Recht, wenn wir
ihre Ungunst nicht besorgen; was aber nun.eure.Erwartung von den
Lakedämoniern angeht, wonach, ihr vertraut, daß sie euch um ihre
Ehre.zu wahren zu Hülfe kommen werden, so.wünschen wir euch
zwar.Glück zu.einem solchen Vertrauen-auf.die Menschen, können
aber doch euren Unverstand nicht beneiden. Die Lakedämonier
handeln zwar unter sich und in Bezug aus ihre eigenen Einrichtungen
meist nach den Gesetzen der Rechtlichkeit; was aber ihr Benehmen
gegen Andere betrifft, da hätte. Einer viel zu reden, und will er sich
kurz fassen, so kann er sie am besten schildern, wenn er sagt, daß sie
nach unserem Wissen unter Allen diejenigen sind, welche am offensten
das für ehrenvoll erklären, was ihnen angenehm ist, und das für
gerecht, was ihnen Nutzen bringt. Und von einer solchen Gesinnung ¹
laßt sich jetzt wohl für eure.so unwahrshceinliche Rettung Nichts
erwarten."

History of the Peloponnesian War. Thucydides. Adolf Wahrmund (Translator). Stuttgart. 1864.

Current edition First1KGreek

Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs (German) (Thucydides. Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs. Wahrmund, Adolf, translator. Stuttgart: Krais and Hoffmann, 1864.)

Editions (1)

Ἱστορίαι Perseus (Thucydides. Historiae, Vol 1-2. Jones, Henry Stuart, editor. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1910. (1942 printing).) — 5.105.1 focus

ΑΘ.

τῆς μὲν τοίνυν πρὸς τὸ θεῖον εὐμενείας οὐδ’ ἡμεῖς οἰόμεθα λελείψεσθαι· οὐδὲν γὰρ ἔξω τῆς ἀνθρωπείας τῶν μὲν ἐς τὸ θεῖον νομίσεως, τῶν δ’ ἐς σφᾶς αὐτοὺς βουλήσεως δικαιοῦμεν ἢ πράσσομεν.

ΑΘ.

ἡγούμεθα γὰρ τό τε θεῖον δόξῃ τὸ ἀνθρώπειόν τε σαφῶς διὰ παντὸς ὑπὸ φύσεως ἀναγκαίας, οὗ ἂν κρατῇ, ἄρχειν· καὶ ἡμεῖς οὔτε θέντες τὸν νόμον οὔτε κειμένῳ πρῶτοι χρησάμενοι, ὄντα δὲ παραλαβόντες καὶ ἐσόμενον ἐς αἰεὶ καταλείψοντες χρώμεθα αὐτῷ, εἰδότες καὶ ὑμᾶς ἂν καὶ ἄλλους ἐν τῇ αὐτῇ δυνάμει ἡμῖν γενομένους δρῶντας ἂν ταὐτό.

ΑΘ.

καὶ πρὸς μὲν τὸ θεῖον οὕτως ἐκ τοῦ εἰκότος οὐ φοβούμεθα ἐλασσώσεσθαι· τῆς δὲ ἐς Λακεδαιμονίους δόξης, ἣν διὰ τὸ αἰσχρὸν δὴ βοηθήσειν ὑμῖν πιστεύετε αὐτούς, μακαρίσαντες ὑμῶν τὸ ἀπειρόκακον οὐ ζηλοῦμεν τὸ ἄφρον.

ΑΘ.

Λακεδαιμόνιοι γὰρ πρὸς σφᾶς μὲν αὐτοὺς καὶ τὰ ἐπιχώρια νόμιμα πλεῖστα ἀρετῇ χρῶνται· πρὸς δὲ τοὺς ἄλλους πολλὰ ἄν τις ἔχων εἰπεῖν ὡς προσφέρονται, ξυνελὼν μάλιστ’ ἂν δηλώσειεν ὅτι ἐπιφανέστατα ὧν ἴσμεν τὰ μὲν ἡδέα καλὰ νομίζουσι, τὰ δὲ ξυμφέροντα δίκαια. καίτοι οὐ πρὸς τῆς ὑμετέρας νῦν ἀλόγου σωτηρίας ἡ τοιαύτη διάνοια.

Translations (9)

The History of the Grecian War Perseus (Thucydides. The English works of Thomas Hobbes of Malmesbury. Hobbes, Thomas. translator. London: John Bohn, 1843.) — 5.105.1 focus

[1] Ath. As for the favour of the gods, we expect to have it as well as you; for we neither do nor require anything contrary to what mankind hath decreed, either concerning the worship of the gods or concerning themselves.

[2] For of the gods we think according to the common opinion; and of men, that for certain by necessity of nature they will everywhere reign over such as they be too strong for. Neither did we make this law nor are we the first that use it made; but as we found it, and shall leave it to posterity for ever, so also we use it, knowing that you likewise, and others that should have the same power which we have, would do the same.

[3] So that forasmuch as toucheth the favour of the gods, we have in reason no fear of being inferior. And as for the opinion you have of the Lacedaemonians, in that you believe they will help you for their own honour, we bless your innocent minds, but affect not your folly.

[4] For the Lacedaemonians, though in respect of themselves and the constitutions of their own country they are wont for the most part to be generous; yet in respect of others, though much might be alleged, yet the shortest way one might say it all thus: that most apparently of all men, they hold for honourable that which pleaseth, and for just that which profiteth. And such an opinion maketh nothing for your now absurd means of safety.

History of the Peloponnesian War Perseus (Thucydides. History of the Peloponnesian War. Crawley, Richard, translator. London and Toronto: J. M. Dent and Sons Ltd.; New York: E. P. Dutton and Co., 1914.) — 5.105.1 focus

‘When you speak of the favour of the gods, we may as fairly hope for that as yourselves; neither our pretensions nor our conduct being in any way contrary to what men believe of the gods, or practise among themselves.

Of the gods we believe, and of men we know, that by a necessary law of their nature they rule wherever they can. And it is not as if we were the first to make this law, or to act upon it when made: we found it existing before us, and shall leave it to exist for ever after us; all we do is to make use of it, knowing that you and everybody else, having the same power as we have, would do the same as we do.

Thus, as far as the gods are concerned, we have no fear and no reason to fear that we shall be at a disadvantage. But when we come to your notion about the Lacedaemonians, which leads you to believe that shame will make them help you, here we bless your simplicity but do not envy your folly.

The Lacedaemonians, when their own interests or their country's laws are in question, are the worthiest men alive; of their conduct towards others much might be said, but no clearer idea of it could be given than by shortly saying that of all the men we know they are most conspicuous in considering what is agreeable honorable, and what is expedient just. Such a way of thinking does not promise much for the safety which you now unreasonably count upon.’

Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs First1KGreek (Thucydides. Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs. Braun, Theodor, translator. Leipzig: Insel-Verlag, 1917.) — 5.105 focus

Athener: „Was die Gunst der Gottheit anlangt, so
glauben wir, daß es auch uns daran nicht fehlen wird, denn
wir verlangen und tun nichts, was dem Glauben der Men
schen an die Gottheit oder dem, was sie untereinander selbst
für recht halten, widerspräche. Unseres Erachtens gilt nämlich
in der ganzen Welt, bei der Gottheit, wie wir glauben, unter
Menschen erfahrungsmäßig, eben ein für allemal das Recht
des Stärkeren. Wir haben dieses Recht weder zuerst eingeführt,
noch zuerst davon Gebrauch gemacht; aber wie wir es alS
ein immer anerkanntes und für alle Zeit gültiges vorgefunden
haben, so handeln wir auch jetzt darnach und zweifeln nicht
daran, daß ihr wie jeder andere es bei gleicher Macht auch
so machen würdet. Also, was die Gottheit anlangt, haben
wir keinen Grund, eine Niederlage zu fürchten. Wenn ihr
aber auf die Lakedämonier rechnet und hofft, daß sie euch schon
anstandshalber beistehen würden, so wünschen wir euch Glück
zu eurer Unschuld, beneiden euch aber nicht darum! DaS
Verhalten der Lakedämonier untereinander und gegenüber ihrem
heimischen Gesetze ist zwar im allgemeinen löblich, aber über
ihre auswärtige Politik wäre manches zu sagen, mit einem
Worte, daß unter allen uns bekannten Völkern keinS so un
verhohlen wie sie, alles was ihnen genehm, für erlaubt hält,
und was ihnen vorteilhaft ist, für Recht erklärt. Bei solcher
Denkart könnt ihr jetzt in eurer mißlichen Lage denn doch
schwerlich auf sie rechnen."

Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponèse First1KGreek (Thucydides. Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése, Vol. 1-2. Zévort, Marie Charles, translator. Paris: Charpentier, 1852.) — 5.105 focus

CV. L es A théniens. « Nous croyons, nous aussi, que la faveur divine ne nous fera pas défaut; car no'us ne demandons, nous ne faisons rien qui ne soit d’accord avec les idées religieuses admises parmi les hommes, et avec ce que chacun réclame pour lui-même¹. Nous pensons en effet, d’accord en cela avec la tradition di- ² vine et l’évidence des choses humaines, que partout où il y a puissance, une nécessité fatale veut aussi qu’il y aitdomination : cen’estpas nousquiavonsposécetteloi; nous ne l’avons point appliquée les premiers; nous l’avons trouvée établie et nous la transmettrons après nous, parce qu’elle est éternelle; nous en profitons, bien convaincus que personne, pas plus vous que d’autres, placé dans les mêmes conditions de puissance, n’en agirait autrement. Pour ce qui est de la faveur divine, nous n’avons donc pas à craindre, suivant toute vraisemblance, d’être plus maltraités que vous; quant à la confiance que vous placez dans les Lacédémoniens, à l’espoir qu’ils viendront par pudeur vous secourir, nous vous félicitons de votre heureuse simplicité, sans envier pourtant votre aveuglement : les Lacédémoniens, entre eux, et pour tout ce qui a trait à leur politique intérieure, observent rigoureusement les lois de la justice; mais à l’égard des autres il y aurait beaucoup à dire sur leurs procédés; qu’il nous suffise de déclarer sommairement qu’il n’est pas de peuple, à notre connaissance, qui confonde plus manifestement le bien avec l’agréable, le juste avec l’utile. Certes, de pareilles dispositions répondent mal à vos folles espérances de salut.

Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése First1KGreek (Thucydides. Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése. Bétant, Élie-Ami, translator. Paris: Librairie de L. Hachette, 1863.) — 5.105 focus

Les Athéniens. Nous ne craignons pas non plus que la protection divine nous manque; car nous ne recherchons ni ne faisons rien de contraire aux sentiments religieux ou aux prétentions humaines. Nous estimons que, par une nécessité de leur nature, les dieux et les hommes ont une égale tendance à dominer, ceux-là dans l’ordre des idées, ceux-ci dans le cercle des réalités. Cette loi, ce n’est pas nous qui l’avons faite ni appliquée les premiers ; nous l’avons trouvée établie, et après nous elle subsistera à tout jamais. Nous ne faisons qu’en user, bien convaincus qu’à notre place ni vous ni personne n’agirait autrement. Ainsi, pour la faveur divine, nous n’avons aucun motif de nous en croire déshérités. Quant à votre confiance dans les Lacédémoniens, que vous vous figurez prêts à vous secourir par un sentiment d’honneur, nous admirons votre innocence, tout en plaignant votre crédulité. Les Lacédémoniens, entre eux et pour ce qui touche aux mœurs . nationales, se guident en général d’après la droiture; mais leur politique extérieure peut se résumer en ceci : savoir qu’à notre connaissance il n’est pas d’hommes qui confondent plus habituellement l’agréable et l’honnête, l’utile et le juste. Or une telle disposition ne s’accorde guère avec vos rêves actuels de salut.

History of the Peloponnesian War First1KGreek (Thucydides, Vol. 1-4. Smith, Charles Foster, translator. London and Cambridge, MA: Heinemann and Harvard University Press, 1919-1923.) — 5.105.1 focus

[1] ATH. “Well, as to the kindness of the divine favour, neither do we expect to fall short of you therein. For in no respect are we departing from men's observances regarding that which pertains to the divine or from their desires regarding that which pertains to themselves, in aught that we demand or do.

[2] For of the gods we hold the belief, and of men we know, that by a necessity of their nature wherever they have power they always rule. And so in our case since we neither enacted this law nor when it was enacted were the first to use it, but found it in existence and expect to leave it in existence for 167 all time, so we make use of it, well aware that both you and others, if clothed with the same power as we are, would do the same thing.

[3] And so with regard to the divine favour, we have good reason not to be afraid that we shall be at a disadvantage. But as to your expectation regarding the Lacedaemonians, your confident trust that out of shame forsooth they will aid you—while we admire your simplicity, we do not envy you your folly.

[4] We must indeed acknowledge that with respect to themselves and the institutions of their own country, the Lacedaemonians practise virtue in a very high degree; but with respect to their conduct towards the rest of mankind, while one might speak at great length, in briefest summary one may declare that of all men with whom we are acquainted they, most conspicuously, consider what is agreeable to be honourable, and what is expedient just. And yet such an attitude is not favourable to your present unreasonable hope of deliverance.”

History of the Peloponnesian War First1KGreek (Thucydides. The history of the Peloponnesian War, Volume 1-2. Dale, Henry, translator. London: Heinemann and Henry G. Bohn, 1851-1852.) — 5.105.1 focus

[1] Ath.

As regards then the favour of heaven, we trust that we too shall not fall short of it: since we are not requiring or doing any thing beyond the opinion of men, with respect to the gods, or their determination, with respect to themselves.

[2]

For of the gods we hold as a matter of opinion, and of men we know as a certainty, that, in obedience to an irresistible instinct, they always maintain dominion, wherever they are the stronger. And we neither enacted this law, nor were the first to carry it out when enacted; but having received it when already in force, and being about to leave it after us to be in force for ever, we only avail ourselves of it; knowing that both you and others, if raised to the same power, would do the same.

[3]

And so, with regard to the gods, we are with good reason fearless of defeat. But with regard to your opinion respecting the Lacedaemonians, according to which you trust, that from a sense of shame, forsooth, they will assist you; though we bless your simplicity, we do not admire your folly.

[4]

For with respect to themselves, and the institutions of their country, the Lacedaemonians do indeed to a very great extent practise virtue; but with respect to others, though we might descant at length on their conduct towards them, speaking most concisely we should declare, that of all the men we are acquainted with, most evident consider what is agreeable to be honourable, and what is exedient to be just. And yet such a view of things is not in favour of your present unreasonable hopes of safety.

Historia Belli Peloponnesiaci First1KGreek (Historia Belli Peloponnesiaci. Haase, Friedrich, translator. Paris: Firmin Didot, 1869.) — 5.105.1 focus

[1] Ath. Deorum quidem benevolentiam ne nos quidem nobis defuturam arbitramur; nihil enim aut pro jure usurpamus aut agimus praeter ea, quae humanitus aut diis tribuunt homines aut pro se ipsis volunt.

[2] Existimamus enim deos ex opinione hominum, et homines manifesto naturae necessitate per omnia ei imperare, quem in sua potestate tenent; atque nos hanc legem neque tulimus, neque ea lata primi usi sumus, sed jam constitutam accepimus et in perpetuum futuram relicturi ea utimur, scientes et vos et ceteros, si eadem, qua nos, potentia praediti essetis, idem esse facturos.

[3] Quod igitur ad deos quidem attinet, sic, ut par est, non extimescimus, ne vobis inferiores futuri simus; quod vero attinet ad opinionem, quam de

Lacedaemoniis habetis, qua freti confiditis, eos pudore adductos opem vobis laturos, vestram quidem simplicitatem laudamus, sed non invidemus stultitiam.

[4] Lacedaemonii enim erga se quidem ipsos et in domesticis instituti» vir. tute plurimum utuntur; erga alios vero quales se praestent. quamvis multa quis commemorare possit, ita tamen fu summa rem optime declaraverit, eos omnium quos noverimus, apertissime jucunda quidem pro honestis, utilia vero pro justis habere. Quamobrem hujusmodi exspectatio ealHti vestrae, cujus nulla ratio est, non convenit.

La storia di Tucidide First1KGreek (Thucydides. Della storia di Tucidide volgarizzata libri otto. Anonymous translator. Florence: Tipografia Galileiana, 1835.) — 5.105 focus

Aten. « Ma la protezione degli Dei pensiamo che neanche a noi mancherà, non esigendo o facendo noi nulla al di là eli quello che gli uomini professano nel culto degli Dei, o vogliono per sé : poiché degli Dei dalla opinione comune, e degli uomini dalla evidenza siamcondotti a credere che per istinto necessario di natura stendono senza eccezione il comando sin dove giungono le forze. Noi pure usiamo di questa legge , non come autori di quella o come primi a praticarla dacché è stata posta; ma perchè l’abbiamo ereditata già in vigore, e perché siamo per lasciarla sussistere per sempre , essendo certi che voi pure e qualunque altro, giungendo in potenza uguale alla nostra, farebbe lo stesso. Ragione dunque vuole che non temiamo di dovere esser da meno quanto alla protezione degli Dei. Quanto poi alla opinione che avete dei Lacedemoni, per la quale confidate che essi vi' aiuteranno per sentimento d’onore , beata la vostra semplicità , ma non invidiamo la stoltezza. Conciossiachè i Lacedemoni, in quel che riguarda loro stessi e la legislazione del paese, fanno prodezze di virtù : quanto poi al modo onde trattano gli altri, lasciando stare quel molto che si avrebbe a dire, dichiareremo in una parola sola colla massima precisione , che pii apertamente di quanti ne conosciamo, tengono per onesto quel che piace , e per giusto quel che é di loro vantaggio. Or tai sentimenti non fanno al caso vostro per quella salvezza di che stoltamente vi lusingate ».

Notes on the current edition

History of the Peloponnesian War

1.
416 v. Chr.

Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War 5.105

Adolf Wahrmund (Translator)

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