Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Adolf Wahrmund (Translator), 3.44

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„Ich bin aber jetzt weder aufgetreten, um der Mytilenäer
wegen irgend Jemandem zu widersprechen, noch auch um sie
anzuklagen. Denn uns, wenn wir anders klug sind, handelt es sich nicht
darum, ob jene Unrecht gethan haben, sondern darum, daß wir einen
klugen Entschluß sassen. Denn selbst wenn ich nachgewiesen hätte,
daß sie uns tödtlich beleidigt haben, würde ich deßhalb noch nicht auch
für die Hinrichtung stimmen, wenn diese uns nicht vortheilhast wäre,
und ebenso wenig würde ich, wenn sie irgendwie Nachsicht verdienten,
diese gewähren, wenn es mir nicht vortheilhaft für den Staat schiene.
Ich meine, wir sollten unsern Beschluß mehr mit Berücksichtigung der
Zukunft als der Gegenwart fassen; und hier bin ich grade in dem
Punkte, worauf Kleon das meiste Gewicht legt, daß nämlich das
Verhängen der Todesstrafe uns für die Zukunft von Vortheil sei, weil
Abfall so leichter verhütet werde, grade der entgegengesetzten Meinung,
obgleich ich eben so gut wie er dabei unser künftiges Wohl im Auge
habe. Ich wünschte nicht, daß ihr zu Liebe der scheinbaren
Richtigkeit seines Vorschlags den Nutzen von euch stießet, den der meinige
bietet. Denn da eurer leidenschaftlichen Erregtheit gegen die
Mytilenäer seine Meinung auf Gerechtigkeit gegründet scheint, so kann sie
euch wohl leicht mitreißen. Aber wir haben ja keinen Rechtshandel
gegen sie durchzufechten, wobei es sich um Recht oder Unrecht handelte,
sondern wir berathen uns, auf welche Art wir ihre Sache am meisten
zu unserm Vortheil austragen können."

History of the Peloponnesian War. Thucydides. Adolf Wahrmund (Translator). Stuttgart. 1864.

Current edition First1KGreek

Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs (German) (Thucydides. Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs. Wahrmund, Adolf, translator. Stuttgart: Krais and Hoffmann, 1864.)

Editions (1)

Ἱστορίαι Perseus (Thucydides. Historiae, Vol 1-2. Jones, Henry Stuart, editor. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1910. (1942 printing).) — 3.44.1 focus

[1] ‘ἐγὼ δὲ παρῆλθον οὔτε ἀντερῶν περὶ Μυτιληναίων οὔτε κατηγορήσων. οὐ γὰρ περὶ τῆς ἐκείνων ἀδικίας ἡμῖν ὁ ἀγών, εἰ σωφρονοῦμεν, ἀλλὰ περὶ τῆς ἡμετέρας εὐβουλίας.

[2] ἤν τε γὰρ ἀποφήνω πάνυ ἀδικοῦντας αὐτούς, οὐ διὰ τοῦτο καὶ ἀποκτεῖναι κελεύσω, εἰ μὴ ξυμφέρον, ἤν τε καὶ ἔχοντάς τι ξυγγνώμης † εἶεν †, εἰ τῇ πόλει μὴ ἀγαθὸν φαίνοιτο.

[3] νομίζω δὲ περὶ τοῦ μέλλοντος ἡμᾶς μᾶλλον βουλεύεσθαι ἢ τοῦ παρόντος. καὶ τοῦτο ὃ μάλιστα Κλέων ἰσχυρίζεται, ἐς τὸ λοιπὸν ξυμφέρον ἔσεσθαι πρὸς τὸ ἧσσον ἀφίστασθαι θάνατον ζημίαν προθεῖσι, καὶ αὐτὸς περὶ τοῦ ἐς τὸ μέλλον καλῶς ἔχοντος ἀντισχυριζόμενος τἀναντία γιγνώσκω.

[4] καὶ οὐκ ἀξιῶ ὑμᾶς τῷ εὐπρεπεῖ τοῦ ἐκείνου λόγου τὸ χρήσιμον τοῦ ἐμοῦ ἀπώσασθαι. δικαιότερος γὰρ ὢν αὐτοῦ ὁ λόγος πρὸς τὴν νῦν ὑμετέραν ὀργὴν ἐς Μυτιληναίους τάχ’ ἂν ἐπισπάσαιτο· ἡμεῖς δὲ οὐ δικαζόμεθα πρὸς αὐτούς, ὥστε τῶν δικαίων δεῖν, ἀλλὰ βουλευόμεθα περὶ αὐτῶν, ὅπως χρησίμως ἕξουσιν.

Translations (10)

The History of the Grecian War Perseus (Thucydides. The English works of Thomas Hobbes of Malmesbury. Hobbes, Thomas. translator. London: John Bohn, 1843.) — 3.44.1 focus

[1] "For my own part, I stood not forth with any purpose of contradiction in the business of the Mytilenaeans nor to accuse any man. For we contend not now, if we be wise, about the injury done by them but about the wisest counsel for ourselves.

[2] For how great soever be their fault, yet I would never advise to have them put to death unless it be for our profit, [nor yet would I pardon them,] though they were pardonable, unless it be good for the commonwealth.

[3] And in my opinion, our deliberation now is of the future rather than of the present. And whereas Cleon contendeth that it will be profitable for the future to put them to death in that it will keep the rest from rebelling, I, contending likewise for the future, affirm the contrary.

[4] And I desire you not to reject the profit of my advice for the fair pretexts of his, which agreeing more with your present anger against the Mytilenaeans may quickly perhaps win your consent. We plead not judicially with the Mytilenaeans so as to need arguments of equity, but we consult of them which way we may serve ourselves of them to our most advantage hereafter.

History of the Peloponnesian War Perseus (Thucydides. History of the Peloponnesian War. Crawley, Richard, translator. London and Toronto: J. M. Dent and Sons Ltd.; New York: E. P. Dutton and Co., 1914.) — 3.44.1 focus

[1] However, I have not come forward either to oppose or to accuse in the matter of Mitylene ; indeed, the question before us as sensible men is not their guilt, but our interests.

[2] Though I prove them ever so guilty, I shall not, therefore, advise their death, unless it be expedient; nor though they should have claims to indulgence, shall I recommend it, unless it be clearly for the good of the country.

[3] I consider that we are deliberating for the future more than for the present; and where Cleon is so positive as to the useful deterrent effects that will follow from making rebellion capital, I who consider the interests of the future quite as much as he, as positively maintain the contrary.

[4] And I require you not to reject my useful considerations for his specious ones: his speech may have the attraction of seeming the more just in your present temper against Mitylene ; but we are not in a court of justice, but in a political assembly; and the question is not justice, but how to make the Mitylenians useful to Athens .

Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs First1KGreek (Thucydides. Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs. Braun, Theodor, translator. Leipzig: Insel-Verlag, 1917.) — 3.44 focus

„Ich bin weder aufgetreten, um die Schuld der Mytilener
zu bestreiken, noch um sie anzuklagen. Denn für uns kann es
sich vernünftigerweise nicht darum handeln, über die Mytilener
zu Gericht zu sitzen, sondern nur darum, einen Beschluß zu
fassen, wie er unserem Interesse entspricht. Selbst wenn ich
der Ansicht wäre, daß sie sich schwer gegen uns vergangen
hätten, würde ich dennoch nicht dafür sein, sie hinzurichten,
wenn es gegen unser Interesse ginge, und wenn ich ihre Hand
lungsweise auch für verzeihlich hielte, würde ich sie ihnen nicht
hingehen lassen, wenn es unserer Stadt zum Schaden gereichte.
Ich meine, wir sollten bei unserem Beschlusse nicht sowohl die
Gegenwart wie die Zukunft im Auge haben. Und wenn Kleon
so bestimmt behauptet, es sei vorteilhaft für uns, sie hinrichten
zu lassen, weil es dann in Zukunft weniger Abfälle geben
würde, so bin ich grade in dieser Beziehung entschieden anderer
Ansicht. Hoffentlich laßt ihr euch durch das Bestechende seiner
Rede nicht verleiten, meinen praktischen Rat von der Hand
zu weisen. Denn da er in seiner Rede mehr den Rechtspunkt
betont, könnte er euch bei eurer augenblicklichen Verbitterung
gegen die Mytilener leicht mit fortreißen. Aber wir führen
ja keinen Prozeß mit den Mytilenern, so daß es nur auf daS
Recht ankäme, sondern es handelt sich für uns darum, so mit
ihnen zu verfahren, wie es unser Interesse erheischt.

Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponèse First1KGreek (Thucydides. Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése, Vol. 1-2. Zévort, Marie Charles, translator. Paris: Charpentier, 1852.) — 3.44 focus

XLIV. « Quant à moi, je n’ai pris la parole ni pour contredire, ni pour accuser personne au sujet des Mytiléniens. Car, si nous sommes sensés, ce n’est pas sur leurs fautes que doit s’établir la discussion, mais sur le meilleur parti à prendre pour nous-mêmes. Quand j’aurais démontré qu’ils sont coupables d’une manière absolue, je ne demanderais pas pour cela leur mort, si elle nous est inutile ; et, méritassent-ils quelque indulgence, je ne la réclamerais pas, si je n’y voyais avantage pour la république. Je crois que nous avons à délibérer sur l’avenir bien plus que sur le présent. Cléon invoque surtout l’utilité qu’il y aura, pour l’avenir, à infliger la peine de mort, afin de rendre les dé- fections moins fréquentes ; et moi, la considération de vos intérêts à venir me conduit à une conclusion tout opposée. Je vous engage donc à ne pas vous laisser entraîner par ce que son discours a de plausible à repousser ce qu’il y a de vraiment utile dans mon opinion ; car ce qu’il a dit, mieux d’accord avec votre ressentiment actuel contre les Mytiléniens, vous semble plus juste et pourrait aisément vous entraîner ; mais il n’est point ici question de faire leur procès (on pourrait alors invoquer la justice), il ne s’agit que de délibérer à leur propos sur le parti le plus utile à prendre pour nous.

Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése First1KGreek (Thucydides. Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése. Bétant, Élie-Ami, translator. Paris: Librairie de L. Hachette, 1863.) — 3.44 focus

« Pour moi, si j’ai pris la parole au sujet des Mytilé-niens, ce n’est pour contredire ni pour accuser personne; car, à considérer sagement les choses, ce n’est pas de leurs torts qu’il s’agit, mais du meilleur parti à prendre pour nous-mêmes. Me fùt-il démontré qu’ils sont coupables au premier chef, ce ne serait pas pour moi une raison de conclure à la mort, si nous n’y trouvions pas notre avantage; comme aussi je ne leur ferais grâce qu’en tant que le bien de l’État l’exigerait¹. J’estime que nous avons à délibérer sur l’avenir encore plus que sur le présent. Cléon soutient que la peine capitale sera utile dans la suite, parce qu’elle diminuera les défections; et moi, la considération de nos intérêts futurs me conduit à une conclusion diamétralement opposée. Ne vous laissez pas engager, par ce que son argumentation peut avoir de spécieux, à repousser ce qu’il y a de vraiment utile dans la mienne. Son discours, motivé par votre colère contre les Mytiléniens, est de nature à vous persuader; toutefois nous n’avons point ici à leur faire leur procès ni à peser la justice de leur conduite, mais à délibérer sur ce que réclame notre intérêt à leur égard.

History of the Peloponnesian War First1KGreek (Thucydides, Vol. 1-4. Smith, Charles Foster, translator. London and Cambridge, MA: Heinemann and Harvard University Press, 1919-1923.) — 3.44.1 focus

[1] "But I have come forward neither as an advocate of the Mytilenaeans in opposition to Cleon nor as their accuser. For the question for us to consider, if we are sensible, is not what wrong they have done, but what is the wise course for us.

[2] For no matter how guilty I show them to be, I shall not on that account bid you to put them to death, unless it is to our advantage; and if I show that they have some claim for forgiveness, I shall not on that account advise you to spare their lives, if this should prove clearly not to be for the good of the state.

[3] In my opinion we are deliberating about the future rather than the present. And as for the point which Cleon especially maintains, that it will be to our future advantage to inflict the penalty of death, to the end that revolts may be less frequent, I also in the interest of our future prosperity emphatically maintain the contrary.

[4] And I beg you not to be led by the speciousness of his argument to reject the practical advantages in mine. For embittered as you are toward the Mytilenaeans, you may perhaps be attracted by his argument, based as it is on the more legal aspects of the case; we are, however, not engaged in a law-suit with them, so as to be concerned about the question of right and wrong; but we are deliberating about them, to determine what policy will make them useful to us.

History of the Peloponnesian War First1KGreek (Thucydides. The history of the Peloponnesian War, Volume 1-2. Dale, Henry, translator. London: Heinemann and Henry G. Bohn, 1851-1852.) — 3.44.1 focus

[1] "I came forward, however, neither to speak against any one in defence of the Mytilenaeans, nor to accuse any one. For the question we have to decide is not, if we take a wise view of it, respecting their guilt, but respecting our taking good counsel.

[2] For though I should prove them to be utterly guilty, I will not for that reason also bid you to put them to death, unless it were expedient: and though they might claim some allowance, [I would not bid you make it,] unless it should appear good for the state.

[3] But I am of opinion that we are deliberating for the future, rather than the present; and as to what Cleon most positively asserts, that it will be advantageous to us in future, with a view to less frequent revolts, if we hold out death as the penalty; I too as positively contradict him, with regard to what is good for the future, and maintain the opposite opinion.

[4] And I beg you not to reject the utility of my advice for the plausibility of his. For his words might perhaps attract you, through being more just with regard to your present displeasure against the Mytilenaeans: but we are not holding a judicial inquiry in their case, that we should want what is just; but are deliberating respecting them, how they may be of service to us.

Historia Belli Peloponnesiaci First1KGreek (Historia Belli Peloponnesiaci. Haase, Friedrich, translator. Paris: Firmin Didot, 1869.) — 3.44.1 focus

[1] « Ego vero in medium processi neque pro Mytilenaeis cuiquam sententiam contrariam dicturus, neque eos accusaturus. Non enim de illorum injuria nobis est certamen, si sapimus, sed de utili nobis consilio.

[2] Nam etiam si ipsos injustissimum facinus fecisse pronuntiem, non tamen ideo eos etiam occidendos censebo, nisi hoc conducat; neque etiam, si qua venia sint digni, [ dimittendos], nisi hoc ipsum e republica fore constiterit.

[3] Credo autem de rebus futuris potius quam de praesentibus nos consultare; atque quod prajcipue Cleo magna cum asseveratione contendit, in posterum utile vobis fore, ut minus facile socii deficiant, si capitale supplicium ipsis proponatis, ego contra de eo, quod in posterum vobis utile est futurum, non minore cum asseveratione contra sentio.

[4] Et a vobis exigo, ne speciosa illius oratione me» orationis utilitatem repellatis* Magis enim justa quum sit ejus oratio in vestra hac adversus Mytilen»os ira, forsitan vos abripiat; nos vero non jam pro jure disceptamus cum illis, ita ut de jure nobis sit qu»rendum : sed consultamus de iis, quonam modo nobis in posterum utiles esse possint.

Vier Staatsreden aus Thucydides First1KGreek (Thucydides. Vier Staatsreden aus Thucydides. Gürsching, Heinrich, translator. Augsburg: Wirth, 1856.) — 2.44.1 focus

[1] Darum ihr Eltern der Gefallenen in dieser Versammlung, erwartet hier von mir nicht Worte der Klage, sondern des Trostes. Was ist doch unser Leben, als ein Launenspiel des Schicksals, und wer ist der Glückliche als der, dem der Tod der Ehren wie diesen, dem eine Trauer gleich der euren zu Theil ward, dem nach würdigem Genuss des Lebens ein gleiches Ende beschieden war.¹

La storia di Tucidide First1KGreek (Thucydides. Della storia di Tucidide volgarizzata libri otto. Anonymous translator. Florence: Tipografia Galileiana, 1835.) — 3.44 focus

ce Ma io non son qua per contradire o accusar chicchessia riguardo ai Mitilenei : non si contende adesso, se abbiam senno, della gravezza del loro delitto ; ma del come sia prudente la nostra determinazione. In fatti, pognamo che io li dimostrassi al tutto rei, non ù per conseguente che io vi consigli ad ucciderli, se ciò non toma a nostro vantaggio : nè, s’ ei meritino perdonanza , che l’ottengano da voi, ove ciò non si mostri di utilità alla patria. Credo poi che la nostra deliberazione riguardi più all’avvenire che al presente: e sul punto ove principalmente insiste Cleone, che a troncar le ribellioni avvenire sarà utile annestarvi la pena di morte , valendomi aneli’ io in opposizione a lui, di quello che pel tempo futuro può tornarci bene, sento contrariamente. E vi farei torto a credere che, per l’apparente forza del suo discorso, vogliate rigettare l’utilità del mio ; essendo che il suo ragionare, che a’termini di severa giustizia più si accomoda co] vostro risentimento contro i Mitilenei, potrebbe forse sedurvi. Ma non siamo adesso in tribunale con loro, da aver bisogno dei principi ài rigoroso diritto ; anzi discutiamo riguardo a noi in qual modo essi possano in segnilo esserci utili.

Commentary

Commentary on Thucydides: Book 3 (Thucydides, Book III. Marchant, Edgar C., editor. London: Macmillan and Company, 1909.) focus

ἤν τε καὶ . . ἐᾶν —for εἶεν most edd. accept ἐᾶν= ‘(I shall not bid you) spare them.’ ἔχοντας, se. ἀποφήνω, is a conjecture for ἔχοντες, and unsatisfactory. The correction is uncertain, and it is doubtful if οὐ κελεύσω can be supplied legitimately. It is likely that something is lost before εἶεν: e.g. Bergk suggested οὐ διὰ τοῦτο καὶ ἄξιοι ἂν ξυγγνώμης. ( εἶεν as exelamatory which Classen, with some doubt, kept, is impossible. Its use is in assent to what precedes and in passing on to a new point it is not appropriate here.)

τοῦτο ὅ is rendered ‘as for this that.’ (1) There is no authority for this phrase used adverbially in this way: hence the conjecture τούτου, governed by τἀναντία. Otherwise we must assume an anacoluthon. (2) But CG read τοῦτο ᾧ, and quite possibly this is right. τοῦτο ἀντισχυριζόμενος ᾧ Κλέων ἰσχυρίζεται=‘while maintaining this in opposition to what C. maintains’ (cf. τοῖς ἐγκλήμασι ἀντεροῦντες I. 73 ). περὶ τοῦ . . ἔχοντος is then epexegetic of τοῦτο, just as ἐς τὸ λοιπὸν . . ἔσεσθαι is of ᾦ (= ἐκείνῳ ὅ). Both insist on the future, but one on τὸ ξυμφέρον, the other on τὸ καλόν.

προθεῖσι —depending on ξυμφέρον ( ὑμῖν), eonditional.

πρός —‘in view of.’

τῶν δικαίων —‘arguments of justice,’ as in Demosth. de Cor. 6, 9. To

δεῖν and

χρησίμως ἕξουσιν supply ἡμῖν.

Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War 3.44

Adolf Wahrmund (Translator)

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