Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Élie-Ami Bétant (Translator), 6.39

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« On· m’objectera que la démocratie est contraire à la raison et à la justice, et que les riches ont seuls qualité pour bien gouverner. Moi je soutiens, en premier lieu, que le peuple c'est l’État tout entier, tandis que l’aristocratie n’en est qu’une fraction ; qu’ensuite, si les riches sont les meilleurs gardiens des richesses, les hommes d’intelligence sont les meilleurs conseillers, et la multitude le meilleur juge des questions qui lui sont soumises; qu’enfîn dans la démocratie ces différentes classes, séparées ou confondues, jouissent des mêmes droits. L’aristocratie au contraire fait participer la multitude aux dangers ; mais pour les avantages, non contente de s’en réserver la meilleure part, elle s’en arroge la totalité, qu’elle confisque à son bénéfice. Et voilà le régime auquel aspirent parmi vous les hommes influents et la jeunesse, régime incompatible avec l’existence d’une grande cité.

« Ce serait, je vous le répète, le comble de la folie. Il faudrait que vous fussiez ou les plus aveugles des Grecs à moi connus, pour ne pas sentir l’iniquité de telles prétentions, ou les plus pervers si, la comprenant, vous persistiez dans votre audace.

History of the Peloponnesian War. Thucydides. Élie-Ami Bétant (Translator). Paris. 1863.

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Current edition First1KGreek

Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése (French) (Thucydides. Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése. Bétant, Élie-Ami, translator. Paris: Librairie de L. Hachette, 1863.)

Editions (1)

Ἱστορίαι Perseus (Thucydides. Historiae, Vol 1-2. Jones, Henry Stuart, editor. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1910. (1942 printing).) — 6.39.1 focus

[1] φήσει τις δημοκρατίαν οὔτε ξυνετὸν οὔτ’ ἴσον εἶναι, τοὺς δ’ ἔχοντας τὰ χρήματα καὶ ἄρχειν ἄριστα βελτίστους. ἐγὼ δέ φημι πρῶτα μὲν δῆμον ξύμπαν ὠνομάσθαι, ὀλιγαρχίαν δὲ μέρος, ἔπειτα φύλακας μὲν ἀρίστους εἶναι χρημάτων τοὺς πλουσίους, βουλεῦσαι δ’ ἂν βέλτιστα τοὺς ξυνετούς, κρῖναι δ’ ἂν ἀκούσαντας ἄριστα τοὺς πολλούς, καὶ ταῦτα ὁμοίως καὶ κατὰ μέρη καὶ ξύμπαντα ἐν δημοκρατίᾳ ἰσομοιρεῖν.

[2] ὀλιγαρχία δὲ τῶν μὲν κινδύνων τοῖς πολλοῖς μεταδίδωσι, τῶν δ’ ὠφελίμων οὐ πλεονεκτεῖ μόνον, ἀλλὰ καὶ ξύμπαντ’ ἀφελομένη ἔχει· ἃ ὑμῶν οἵ τε δυνάμενοι καὶ οἱ νέοι προθυμοῦνται, ἀδύνατα ἐν μεγάλῃ πόλει κατασχεῖν. ‘ἀλλ’ ἔτι καὶ νῦν, ὦ πάντων ἀξυνετώτατοι, εἰ μὴ μανθάνετε κακὰ σπεύδοντες, ἢ ἀμαθέστατοί ἐστε ὧν ἐγὼ οἶδα Ἑλλήνων, ἢ ἀδικώτατοι, εἰ εἰδότες τολμᾶτε.

Translations (9)

The History of the Grecian War Perseus (Thucydides. The English works of Thomas Hobbes of Malmesbury. Hobbes, Thomas. translator. London: John Bohn, 1843.) — 6.39.1 focus

[1] "Some will say that the democracy is neither a well-governed nor a just state, and that the most wealthy are aptest to make the best government. But I answer first, democracy is a name of the whole, oligarchy but of a part. Next, though the rich are indeed fittest to keep the treasure, yet the wise are the best counsellors, and the multitude, upon hearing, the best judge. Now in a democracy all these, both jointly and severally, participate equal privileges.

[2] But in the oligarchy they allow indeed to the multitude a participation of all dangers, but in matters of profit, they not only encroach upon the multitude, but take from them and keep the whole. Which is the thing that you the rich and the younger sort affect, but in a great city cannot possibly embrace. But yet, O ye the most unwise of all men, unless you know that what you affect is evil, and if you know not that, you are the most ignorant of all the Grecians I know; or, ye most wicked of all men, if knowing it you dare do this.

History of the Peloponnesian War Perseus (Thucydides. History of the Peloponnesian War. Crawley, Richard, translator. London and Toronto: J. M. Dent and Sons Ltd.; New York: E. P. Dutton and Co., 1914.) — 6.39.1 focus

[1] It will be said, perhaps, that democracy is neither wise nor equitable, but that the holders of property are also the best fitted to rule. I say, on the contrary, first, that the word “demos,” or people, includes the whole state, oligarchy only a part; next, that if the best guardians of property are the rich, and the best counsellors the wise, none can hear and decide so well as the many; and that all these talents, severally and collectively, have their just place in a democracy.

[2] But an oligarchy gives the many their share of the danger, and not content with the largest part takes and keeps the whole of the profit; and this is what the powerful and young among you aspire to, but in a great city cannot possibly obtain.

Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs First1KGreek (Thucydides. Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs. Wahrmund, Adolf, translator. Stuttgart: Krais and Hoffmann, 1864.) — 6.39 focus

'„Nun wird der Ein6 oder der Andere sagen,
Volksherrschaft habe weder Verstand, noch gewähre sie Gleichheit, und die
Reichen seien zum gut Regieren am geschicktesten. Ich aber sage'für's
Erste, daß unter dem Volke Alle einbegriffen sind, der Adel aber
nur einen Theil bildet,'^— dann,, daß zwar die Reichen die Finanzen
am besten leiten können, zum Berathen jedoch die Verständigen die
Besten sind, und zum Entscheiden das ganze Volk; nachdem es diese
angehört hat. Und so haben alle Klassen im Ganzen wie im
Einzelnen bei einer Volksherrschaft gleiche Rechte. Eine Adelsherrschast
aber läßt zwar der Masse ihren Antheil an den Gefahren-vom Nutzen
aber zieht sie nicht nur den größeren Theil, sondern sie. steckt ihn:
gleich ganz und gar ein. Und das ist es auch, wonach ihr Reichen
und ihr jüngeren Leute strebt, doch in einer großen Stadt ist das
nicht durchzusetzen. Aber wenn ihr dümmsten aller Menschen auch
jetzt noch nicht einseht, daß ihr Unheilvolles herbeizuführen strebt,
so entbehrt ihr entweder unter allen Hellenen, von denen ich weiß,
am meisten jeder Einsicht, oder ihr seid die größten Schurken, sosern
ihr nämlich mit Wissen solches wagt." .. i i '

Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs First1KGreek (Thucydides. Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs. Braun, Theodor, translator. Leipzig: Insel-Verlag, 1917.) — 6.39 focus

„Man sagt wohl, die Demokratie sei weder vernünftig
noch gerecht, und die Reichen seien vorzugsweise befähigt, den
Staat zu regieren. Ich aber sage einmal, unter Demos ver
steht man das Ganze, unter Oligarchie aber nur ein einzelnes
Glied, und weiter, die Reichen sind die besten Schatzmeister,
die Gescheitesten die besten Ratsherren, das ganze Volk aber
ist am besten imstande, über die ihm gemachten Vorschläge daS
entscheidende Wort zu sprechen; sie alle aber kommen, im
einzelnen wie im ganzen, in der Demokratie zu ihrem Recht.
In der Oligarchie dagegen muß das ganze Volk die Gefahren
mittragen, während die Vorteile einigen wenigen nicht nur
überwiegend, sondern ausschließlich zugute kommen. Darnach
aber streben hier bei uns die Mächtigen und die jungen Herren,
und das kann sich ein großes Gemeinwesen auf die Dauer
nicht gefallen lassen.

Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponèse First1KGreek (Thucydides. Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése, Vol. 1-2. Zévort, Marie Charles, translator. Paris: Charpentier, 1852.) — 6.39 focus

XXXIX. « On dira que la démocratie n’est ni intelligente, ni juste; que les détenteurs des richesses sont les plus capables de bien gouverner. Et moi je réponds d’abord que ce qu’on appelle le peuple, c’est l’État tout entier dont l’oligarchie n’est qu’une fraction; ensuite que les riches excellent à garder les richesses, les gens instruits à donner des conseils, et la multitude à juger après avoir été instruite. Dans une démocratie, chacune de ces classes en particulier, et toutes ensemble, jouissent des mêmes droits : l’oligarchie, au contraire, abandonne bien à la multitude sa part des dangers; mais, pour les avantages, non contente de prendre la première part, elle attire à elle et garde le tout. Voilà ce que convoitent chez vous les riches et les jeunes gens, ce qu’il leur est impossible d’atteindre dans un grand État. Et pourtant, maintenant encore!... O les plus insensés des hommes! Vous êtes ou les plus ineptes des Grecs que je connaisse si vous ne sentez pas que vous poursuivez de criminels desseins, ou les plus pervers, si, le sachant, vous persistez dans votre audace.

History of the Peloponnesian War First1KGreek (Thucydides, Vol. 1-4. Smith, Charles Foster, translator. London and Cambridge, MA: Heinemann and Harvard University Press, 1919-1923.) — 6.39.1 focus

[1] "Some will say that a democracy is neither wise nor equitable, and that those that have property are more competent to rule best. But I say, first, that democracy is a name for all, oligarchy for only a part; next, that while the wealthy are the best guardians of property, the wise would be the best counsellors, and the many, after hearing matters discussed, would be the best judges;

[2] and that these classes, whether severally or collectively, enjoy a like equality in a democracy. An oligarchy, on the other hand, gives the many a share of the dangers, but of the advantages it not merely claims the lion's share, but even takes and keeps all. And this is what the powerful among you and the young men are bent upon—a thing impossible to attain in a great city.

History of the Peloponnesian War First1KGreek (Thucydides. The history of the Peloponnesian War, Volume 1-2. Dale, Henry, translator. London: Heinemann and Henry G. Bohn, 1851-1852.) — 6.39.1 focus

[1] "Some one will say, that a democracy is neither a sensible nor an equitable thing, but that those who have property are also most competent to rule best. But I say, in the first place, that 'democracy' is a name for all, but ' oligarchy' for only a part; and, in the second place, that though the rich are the best guardians of property, the intelligent would be the best counsellors, and the mass of the people the best judges after hearing measures discussed;

[2] and that all these things, both severally and collectively, have their due share allotted to them in a democracy. An oligarchy, on the other hand, admits, indeed, the many to a share of dangers, but of advantages it not only enjoys the larger part, but even takes away and keeps the whole. And this is what the powerful and young among you desire—a thing impossible to attain in a great city.

Historia Belli Peloponnesiaci First1KGreek (Historia Belli Peloponnesiaci. Haase, Friedrich, translator. Paris: Firmin Didot, 1869.) — 6.39.1 focus

[1] « Dixerit quispiam, popularem statum rem esse neque consultam neque ;rquabilem, sed eos, qui pecuniae vim possident, optimos etiam esse ad optime imperandum. Ego vero respondeo primum quidem populi nomen universam rempublicam complecti, paucorum vero potentiam partem, deinde custodes quidem optimos pecuniarum esse locupletes, sed consultores prsestantissimos esse viros prudentes , judicem vero optimum, postquam res audierit, esse multitudinem; atque haec omnia pariter et per partes et simul universa in statu populari juris aequabilitate frui.

[2] Sed paucorum dominatus pericula quidem multitudini impertit, commodorum vero non solum majorem partem capit, verum etiam universa ceteris erepta relinet; quas res illi, qui inter vos sunt et potentes et juvenes, obtinere student , quod fieri non potest in ampla civitate. At nunc etiam, omnium stultissimi, nisi animadvertitis, vos rem perniciosam affectare, aut omnium Graecorum, quos ego novi, estis imperitissimi, aut injustissimi, si scientes audetis.

La storia di Tucidide First1KGreek (Thucydides. Della storia di Tucidide volgarizzata libri otto. Anonymous translator. Florence: Tipografia Galileiana, 1835.) — 6.39 focus

« Dirà taluno che la democrazia manca di accorgimento e di giustezza , e che i denarosi sono i più idonei a comandare ottimamente : ed io rispondo, primo che il nome popolo comprende tutto Io stato, quello d’oligarchia una parte : di poi che i migliori custodi del denaro sonoi ricchi, consiglieri ottimi i saggi, ed ottimo giudice il popolo, inteso che abbia le cose. E tutte queste classi di cittadini, sì in diviso sì in comune, trovano eguaglianza nella democrazia ; laddove l’oligarchia fa parte de’pericoli al popolo; quanto però ai vantaggi, non solo la maggior parte, ma anche tutti glieli toglie e gli usurpa per sè. Ecco quello di che si brigano tra voi i potenti ed i giovani , ma che è impossibile ad ottenere in città grande. Anzi, o gente dissennata sopra tutte, voi fin d’ora vi mostrate o i più imbecilli di quanti Greci conosco, se non vi accorgete che così correte alla rovina ; o i più ingiusti se sapendolo, nondimeno Tosate.

Commentary

Commentary on Thucydides: Book 6 (Thucydides, Book VI. Marchant, Edgar C., editor. London: Macmillan and Company, 1909.) focus

φήσει τις κτλ —‘I shall be told that democracy is neither a wise nor a fair principle, that the owners of property are at the same time the best qualified to govern well. But I answer first that a whole community is termed a people, whereas only a section bears the name oligarchy; further, that though the rich are the best guardians of property, the wise are the best counsellors, and the many after hearing arguments are the best judges, and that these (three) classes, whether they act in parts or as a whole, have under democracy an equal share.’

βουλεῦσαι δ’ ἂν κτλ —cf. II. 40 ἤτοι κρίνομέν γε ἢ ἐνθυμούμεθα ὀρθῶς τὰ πράγματα

καὶ κατὰ μέρη καὶ ζύμπαντα —‘these whether in seetions or together,’ i.e. as separate μέρη of the δῆμος and as together making it up. The words are introduced for the sake of the reference to ζυμπαν and μέρος above—a point missed by edd.

τῶν δ’ ὠφελίμων —‘of the advantages it not merely claims an excessive share, but appropriates them all.’

ἀφελομένη ἔχει —cf. I. 38 ἑλόντες βίᾳ ἔχουσι, and c. 76, 2. ‘From this use of ἔχειν it comes to be employed with the partic aor or perf. as a periphrasis for those tenses, but expressing strongly the maintenance of the result attained . . frequent in the tragic poets, particularly Soph.’ (Morris).

ὑμῶν . . προθυμοῦνται —with ‘partitive’ gen. 1st or 2nd pers., the verb is generally in the 3rd person.

οἵ τε δυνάμενοι = οἱ ὀλιγαρχικοί (Schol.).

ἀδύνατα —sc. ὄντα, ‘whereas it is impossible to attain such hopes.’

Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War 6.39

Élie-Ami Bétant (Translator)

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