Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Henry Dale (Translator), 5.90.1

Search the Perseus Catalog for:

View: By Chapter

← Previous Next →

[1]

Mel.¹ So far then as our opinion goes, it is for our advantage (for we must, since you have so prescribed, speak of what is expedient, to the neglect of what is right) that you should not take away what is a common benefit; but that for every one who at any time is in danger, what is reasonable should also be considered right; and that if he can gain assent to something which ails short of strict justice, he should have the benefit of it. And this is not less for your interest; in as much, as ² you would afford to others, should you fail, a pattern for inflicting the heaviest vengeance upon you.

History of the Peloponnesian War. Thucydides. Henry Dale (Translator). London. 1851.

Sponsored by Perseus Project, Tufts University.

Current edition First1KGreek

History of the Peloponnesian War (English) (Thucydides. The history of the Peloponnesian War, Volume 1-2. Dale, Henry, translator. London: Heinemann and Henry G. Bohn, 1851-1852.)

Editions (1)

Ἱστορίαι Perseus (Thucydides. Historiae, Vol 1-2. Jones, Henry Stuart, editor. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1910. (1942 printing).) — 5.90.1 focus

ΜΗΛ.

ἧι μὲν δὴ νομίζομέν γε, χρήσιμον (ἀνάγκη γάρ, ἐπειδη) ὑμεῖς οὕτω παρὰ τὸ δίκαιον τὸ ξυμφέρον λέγειν ὑπέθεσθἐ μὴ καταλύειν ὑμᾶς τὸ κοινὸν ἀγαθόν, ἀλλὰ τῷ αἰεὶ ἐν κινδύνῳ γιγνομένῳ εἶναι τὰ εἰκότα καὶ δίκαια, καί τι καὶ ἐντὸς τοῦ ἀκριβοῦς πείσαντά τινα ὠφεληθῆναι. καὶ πρὸς ὑμῶν οὐχ ἧσσον τοῦτο, ὅσῳ καὶ ἐπὶ μεγίστῃ τιμωρίᾳ σφαλέντες ἂν τοῖς ἄλλοις παράδειγμα γένοισθε.

Translations (9)

The History of the Grecian War Perseus (Thucydides. The English works of Thomas Hobbes of Malmesbury. Hobbes, Thomas. translator. London: John Bohn, 1843.) — 5.90.1 focus

[1] Mel. Well then (seeing you put the point of profit in the place of justice), we hold it profitable for ourselves not to overthrow a general profit to all men, which is this: that men in danger, if they plead reason and equity, nay, though somewhat without the strict compass of justice, yet it ought ever to do them good. And the same most of all concerneth you, forasmuch as you shall else give an example unto others of the greatest revenge that can be taken if you chance to miscarry.

History of the Peloponnesian War Perseus (Thucydides. History of the Peloponnesian War. Crawley, Richard, translator. London and Toronto: J. M. Dent and Sons Ltd.; New York: E. P. Dutton and Co., 1914.) — 5.90.1 focus

‘As we think, at any rate, it is expedient—we speak as we are obliged, since you enjoin us to let right alone and talk only of interest—that you should not destroy what is our common protection, the privilege of being allowed in danger to invoke what is fair and right, and even to profit by arguments not strictly valid if they can be got to pass current. And you are as much interested in this as any, as your fall would be a signal for the heaviest vengeance and an example for the world to meditate upon.’

Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs First1KGreek (Thucydides. Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs. Wahrmund, Adolf, translator. Stuttgart: Krais and Hoffmann, 1864.) — 5.90 focus

Melier: „Wir unserseits halten für nützlich — denn
ihr zwingt uns ja den Nutzen hervorzuheben, da ihr ihn mit
Beseitigung der Gerechtigkeit zu eurem Grundsatz macht — wenn ihr das
nicht aushebt, was für Alle gemeinsamer Nutzen ist. " Es versteht sich
ja doch von selbst, daß wer immer in Gefahr ist, den Ändern
überreden darf, ihm auch wohl über das strenge Recht hinaus eine
Begünstigung zu Theil werden zu lassen.. Und von euch erwarten wir
.das um so mehr, als ihr ja, im Fall ihr überwunden werdet, für die
Andern als ein Beispiel der furchtbarsten Bestrafung dienen würdet."

Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs First1KGreek (Thucydides. Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs. Braun, Theodor, translator. Leipzig: Insel-Verlag, 1917.) — 5.90 focus

Melier: „Nach unserer Ansicht - und wir müssen das
aussprechen, da ihr von Recht nichts hören wollt und uns
auf die Nützlichkeit verweist - hat eS aber doch auch seinen
Nutzen, nicht gegen den für alle wertvollen Grundsatz zu ver,
stoßen, daß man jedem in Gefahr Befindlichen Billigkeit für
Recht ergehen lassen und eS mit seinen Gründen nicht allzu
genau nehmen soll. Und das gilt für euch so gut wie für
andere; denn solltet ihr auch einmal besiegt werden, so würde
man sich eure Härte zum Beispiel nehmen und gegen euch
ebenso verfahren."

Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponèse First1KGreek (Thucydides. Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése, Vol. 1-2. Zévort, Marie Charles, translator. Paris: Charpentier, 1852.) — 5.90 focus

XC. L es M éliens. « Eh bien, au point de vue de l’utilité (il faut bien partir de là, puisque vous nous provoquez à laisser le juste à l’écart, pour parler intérêt), vous auriez tort, à notre avis, de mettre de côté l’intérêt général¹; il est bon, au contraire, d’accorder toujours à qui est dans une situation critique ce qui est juste et convenable, de le laisser même demander à la persuasion quelques avantages au delà du droit strict et rigoureux. Vous y êtes intéressés plus que personne, d’autant mieux que par des châtiments excessifs vous fourniriez aux autres un précédent, si vous veniez à éprouver quelque échec.

Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése First1KGreek (Thucydides. Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése. Bétant, Élie-Ami, translator. Paris: Librairie de L. Hachette, 1863.) — 5.90 focus

Les Méliens. Eh bien, pour nous placer sut le ternis de l’intérêt — nous y sommes obligés, puisque vous ériges en principe l'utile plutôt que le juste, — selon nous cet intérêt exige que vous ne fassiez pas abstraction de l’utilité commune, mais qu’il soit bien entendu que, pour quiconque se trouve es danger, la convenance se substitue au droit, et que, n’eét-il à alléguer que les raisons les plus faibles, il doit être admis iles faire valoir. Cette manière de poser la question est aussi bien dans votre sens que dans le nôtre; car, si vous poussiez à l’excès l’esprit de vengeance et que vous vinssiez à éprouver des revers, on ne manquerait pas de rétorquer contre vous l’exemple que vous auriez donné.

History of the Peloponnesian War First1KGreek (Thucydides, Vol. 1-4. Smith, Charles Foster, translator. London and Cambridge, MA: Heinemann and Harvard University Press, 1919-1923.) — 5.90.1 focus

[1] MEL. “As we think, at any rate, it is expedient (for we are constrained to speak of expediency, since you have in this fashion, ignoring the principle of justice, suggested that we speak of what is advantageous) that you should not rule out the principle of the common good, but that for him who is at the time in peril what is equitable should also be just, and though one has not entirely¹ proved his point he should still derive some benefit therefrom. And this is not less for your interest than for our own, inasmuch as you, if you shall ever meet with a reverse, would not only incur the greatest punishment, but would also become a warning example to others.”²

Historia Belli Peloponnesiaci First1KGreek (Historia Belli Peloponnesiaci. Haase, Friedrich, translator. Paris: Firmin Didot, 1869.) — 5.90.1 focus

[1] Mel. Atqui nos utile quidem censemus (necesse enim est, quandoquidem vos ita, praeterita aequitate, sermonem de utilitate instituistis) id quod omnibus est commune bonum, a vobis non eveiti, sed ei, qui quoque tempore in periculo versatur, ea justa haberi, quae aequa sunt, atque eum etiam praeter id, quod accuratissima ratione justum est, si alteri persuadere possit, commodum aliquod percipere. Hoc autem eo magis e re vestra futurum est, quo etiam vos majore proposita poena, si offenderitis, ceteris mortalibus exemplo eritis.

La storia di Tucidide First1KGreek (Thucydides. Della storia di Tucidide volgarizzata libri otto. Anonymous translator. Florence: Tipografia Galileiana, 1835.) — 5.90 focus

Melii. « Noi certamente crediamo vantaggioso (giacché è forza rifarsi di qui, mentre lasciando da parte la giustizia vi siete proposti di parlar solo di utilità) che non si abolisca da voi un principio generalmente buono ; e che anzi, per chi si trovi in qualche occasione in pericolo, vi sia equità e giustizia ; e così ciascuno , quantunque nou rìetca a persuadere altri dì qualche cosa colla più rigorosa evidenza, pure ne risenta vantaggio. E ciò stimiamo essere , più che altro, a prò vostro in quanto che, in caso di qualche sinistro, soffrireste più grave vendetta da essere di esempio agli altri ».

Notes on the current edition

History of the Peloponnesian War

1. I have not followed Arnold's reading in this passage, though Bekker and Göller adopt it; because it seems improbable that ἦ μέν, the reading of nearly all the MSS., should have been a mistake of the copyists for one so much easier, and so different from it, as ἡμεῖς. At the same time I am far from certain whether ᾗ μέν that which I have preferred, on the authority of Herman, Poppo, and Bloomfield, be really the true one; for in no other passage in Thucydides, I believe, has ᾗ the force which is here given to it; and though Bloomfield quotes one instance of its being so used by Xenophon, he is there writing, not as an historian, but as a philosopher; and so uses it, as it is very commonly used by philosophical writers in later times. Should this objection be thought to have any weight, I would venture to propose ἡμῖν which comes nearer to the various readings of the MSS. than ἡμεῖς; and gives a sense in exact accordance with what follows: for καὶ πρὸς ὑμῶν, at the beginning of the next paragraph, would stand in strong opposition to it:

For us, then, we certainly think it advantageous——and it is no less for your interest also.

It may perhaps be regarded as some corroboration of this conjecture, that the scholiast quoted by Arnold uses ἡμῖν in his paraphrase; νομίζομεν ἡμῖν προσήκειν μὴ καταλύειν τὸ κοινὸν ἀγαθόν.

2. This is pretty nearly the interpretation of the passage given by Bauer, and sanctioned by Poppo. For the many others that have been adopted see the note of the latter.

Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War 5.90.1

Henry Dale (Translator)

Search the Perseus Catalog for:

Current edition First1KGreek

Notes on the current edition

Stable identifiers