Titus Livius (Livy), Ab urbe condita, Benjamin Oliver Foster, Ph.D. (Editor), Frank Gardener Moore (Editor), Evan T. Sage, Ph.D. (Editor), Alfred C. Schlesinger, Ph.D. (Editor), 45.23

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[1]

"The rewards which we received from you after the conquest of Philip and of Antiochus were most abundant. ¹ If the good fortune which is now yours by the grace of the gods and because of your valour had fallen to Perseus, and we had come to Macedonia to seek a reward from the victorious king, what pray would we say?

[2] That we had aided him with money or with grain, with forces on land or on sea? What fortress had we held? Where had we fought either under his commanders or by ourselves?

[3] If he asked where there had been a soldier of ours, or where a ship, within his lines, what in the world would be our answer?

[4] Perhaps we should be defending ourselves before the conqueror, as now we are before you. For the result we obtained by sending envoys to both parties concerning peace was that we won no favour from either side, but incurred even ² accusation and danger from one of them.

[5] Yet Perseus might truly reproach us, as you cannot, gentlemen of the senate, because we sent to you at the beginning of the war envoys to promise you whatever was needed for the war; we would be ready, we said, as in the former wars, with ships, arms, and young men for every demand.

[6] The obstacle to our furnishing these things was of your making, since you for whatever reason spurned our aid at that time. ³ Neither therefore have we in any way acted as enemies, nor have we failed in the duty of good allies, but we were prevented from performing that duty by you. 'What then?

[7] Has nothing been said or done in your city, Rhodians, which you would wish undone, at which the Roman People might justly take offence? ' From this point I do not propose to defend what has happened —I am not so mad —but I propose to separate the defence of the state from the guilt of private citizens.

[8] There is no state which will not have not only wicked citizens at certain times but an inexperienced commonalty always.:

[9] Even in your city I hear that there have been those who pursued ill-gotten gain by toadying to the mob, and that at certain times the commons seceded from you and you lost control of the commonwealth. ⁴

[10] If this could happen in a state-with -so well disciplined a character, can any one marvel that there were some among us who in grasping after the king's friendship led our commons astray with their counsel? ⁵ However, these people wrought no ⁶ harm beyond slackness in our loyalty as friends.

[11] I shall not pass over the most serious charge against our city in this war: we sent envoys at the same time both to you and to Perseus on the subject of peace;

[12] this unhappy plan, through a madman, as we heard later, who was spokesman, became something extremely stupid, for he spoke, it is well known, as the Roman envoy Gaius Popilius might have spoken, whom you sent to turn back from war Kings Antiochus and Ptolemy. But nevertheless this error, whether it should be called arrogance or folly, was no different before you from what it was before Perseus.

[13] The character of states is like that of individual men; some nations are hot-tempered, some bold, some diffident, some over-indulgent in wine, others in sex.

[14] The people of Athens, report has it, is quick and bold beyond its strength in adventure, the Spartan hesitant and hardly undertaking matters of which it is sure. ⁷

[15] I would not deny that all the region of Asia breeds somewhat flighty temperaments, and that our rhetoric is rather inflated ⁸ because we might seem to be outstanding among the states in our area-a position due precisely not to our own powers but to your favours and your choice of us.

[16] Enough punishment was meted out to that embassy on the spot and to their faces, when they were sent away with so grim an answer from you.

[17] But if at that time they paid too small a penalty of disgrace, certainly the present embassy, so pitiable and so humble, would be atonement ⁹ great ¹⁰ enough for an even more arrogant embassy than that other one was. Arrogance, especially of speech, is hated by the hot-tempered, but laughed at by the wise, especially if directed by an inferior against his superior; no one has ever thought it worthy of the death-penalty.

[18] There was danger, to be sure, that the Rhodians should despise the Romans! Even the gods are assailed by some with overbold language, but we have never heard that any one has on that

[19] account been struck by a thunderbolt.

Ab urbe condita. Titus Livius (Livy). Benjamin Oliver Foster, Ph.D. (Editor), Frank Gardener Moore (Editor), Evan T. Sage, Ph.D. (Editor), Alfred C. Schlesinger, Ph.D. (Editor). Medford, MA. .

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Funding provided by The National Endowment for the Humanities.

Current edition Perseus

History of Rome (English) (Foster, Benjamin Oliver; Moore, Frank Gardener; Sage, Evan T.; Schlesinger, Alfred C., translators. Cambridge, Mass.; London: Harvard University Press; William Heinemann, Ltd., 1919-1959. (Loeb Classical Library))

Editions (3)

Ab urbe condita Perseus (Pars I-IV, Libri I-XL. Editio Stereotypica. Weissenborn, Wilhelm; Mueller, Moritz, editors. Leipzig: Teubner, 1884-1911.) — 45.23 focus

[1] “praemia et Philippo et Antiocho devictis amplissima accepimus a vobis. si, quae vestra nunc est fortuna deum benignitate et virtute vestra, ea Persei fuisset, et praemia petitum ad victorem regem venissemus in Macedoniam, quid tandem diceremus?

[2] pecuniane a nobis adiutum an frumento? auxiliis terrestribus an navalibus? quod praesidium tenuisse nos? ubi pugnasse aut sub illius ducibus aut per nos ipsos? si quaereret, ubi miles noster, ubi navis intra praesidia sua fuisset, quid responderemus?

[3] causam fortasse diceremus apud victorem, quem ad modum apud vos dicimus.

[4] hoc enim legatos utroque de pace mittendo consecuti sumus, ut ne ab utraque parte gratiam iniremus, ab altera etiam crimen et periculum esset.

[5] quamquam Perseus vere obiceret, id quod vos non potestis, patres conscripti, nos principio belli misisse ad vos legatos, qui pollicerentur vobis, quae ad bellum opus essent; navibus, armis, iuventute nos nostra, sicut prioribus bellis, ad omnia paratos fore.

[6] ne praestaremus, per vos stetit, qui de quacumque causa tum aspernati nostra auxilia estis. neque fecimus igitur quicquam tamquam hostes, neque bonorum sociorum defuimus officio, sed a vobis prohibiti praestare fuimus.

[7] “quid igitur? nihilne factum neque dictum est in civitate vestra, Rhodii, quod nolletis, quo merito offenderetur populus Romanus?” hinc iam non, quod factum est, sum defensurus — non adeo insanio — , sed publicam causam a privatorum culpa segregaturus.

[8] nulla est civitas, quae non et improbos cives aliquando et imperitam multitudinem semper habeat.

[9] etiam apud vos fuisse audivi, qui adsentando multitudini grassarentur, et secessisse aliquando a vobis plebem nec in potestate vestra rem publicam fuisse.

[10] si hoc in hac tam bene morata civitate accidere potuit, mirari quisquam potest aliquos fuisse apud nos, qui regis amicitiam petentes plebem nostram consiliis depravarent? qui tamen nihil ultra valuerunt, quam ut in officio cessaremus.

[11] non praeteribo id, quod gravissimum est in hoc bello crimen civitatis nostrae: legatos eodem tempore et ad vos et ad Persea de pace misimus; quod infelix consilium furiosus, ut postea audivimus,

[12] orator stultissimum fecit, quem sic locutum constat, tamquam C. Popilius legatus Romanus, quem ad summovendos a bello Antiochum et Ptolemaeum reges misistis, loqueretur.

[13] sed tamen ea sive superbia, sive stultitia appellanda est, eadem, quae apud vos, et apud Persea fuit.

[14] tam civitatium quam singulorum hominum mores sunt: gentes quoque aliae iracundae, aliae audaces, quaedam timidae, in vinum, in Venerem proniores aliae sunt.

[15] Atheniensium populum fama est celerem et supra vires audacem esse ad conandum, Lacedaemoniorum cunctatorem et vix in ea, quibus fidit, ingredientem.

[16] non negaverim et totam Asiae regionem inaniora parere ingenia, et nostrorum tumidiorem sermonem esse, quod excellere inter finitimas civitates videamur, et id ipsum non tam viribus nostris quam vestris honoribus ac iudiciis.

[17] satis quidem et tunc in praesentia castigata illa legatio erat, cum tam tristi responso vestro dimissa. si tum parum ignominiae pensum est, haec certe tam miserabilis ac supplex legatio etiam insolentioris, quam illa fuit, legationis satis magnum piaculum esset.

[18] superbiam, verborum praesertim, iracundi oderunt, prudentes inrident, utique si inferioris adversus superiorem est; capitali poena nemo umquam dignam iudicavit.

[19] id enimvero periculum erat, ne Romanos Rhodii contemnerent. etiam deos aliqui verbis ferocioribus increpant, nec ideo quemquam fulmine ictum audimus.”

Ab urbe condita Perseus (Livy in Fourteen Volumes. Foster, Benjamin Oliver; Moore, Frank Gardener; Schlesinger, Alfred C., editors. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press; London: William Heinemann, Ltd., 1919-1959 (printing).) — 45.23 focus

[1]

" praemia et Philippo et ¹ Antiocho devictis amplissima accepimus a vobis. si , quae vestra nunc est fortuna deum benignitate et virtute vestra, ea Persei fuisset, et praemia petitum ad victorem regem venissemus in Macedoniam, quid tandem diceremus? pecuniane a nobis adiutum an frumento?

[2] auxiliis terrestribus an navalibus? quod praesidium tenuisse nos? ubi pugnasse aut sub illius ducibus aut ² per nos ipsos?

[3] si quaereret, ubi miles noster, ubi navis intra praesidia sua fuisset, quid responderemus? causam fortasse diceremus apud victorem, quem ad modum apud vos dicimus.

[4] hoc enim legatos utroque ³ de pace mittendo consecuti sumus, ut ne ab utraque parte gratiam iniremus, ab altera etiam crimen et ⁴ periculum esset.

[5] quamquam Perseus vere obiceret, id quod vos non potestis, patres conscripti, nos principio belli misisse ad vos legatos, qui pollicerentur vobis, quae ad bellum opus essent; navibus, ⁵ armis, iuventute nos, ⁶ sicut prioribus bellis, ad omnia paratos fore.

[6] ne praestaremus, per vos stetit, qui de quacumque causa tum aspernati nostra auxilia estis. neque fecimus igitur quicquam tamquam ⁷ hostes, neque bonorum sociorum defuimus officio, sed a vobis prohibiti praestare fuimus.

[7]

quid igitur? nihilne factum neque dictum est in civitate vestra, Rhodii, quod nolletis, quo merito offenderetur populus Romanus?

hinc iam non, quod factum est, sum ⁸ defensurus—non adeo insanio—, sed publicam causam a privatorum culpa segregaturus.

[8] nulla⁹ est civitas, quae non et improbos cives aliquando et imperitam multitudinem semper habeat.

[9] etiam apud vos fuisse audivi, qui adsentando multitudini grassarentur, et secessisse aliquando a vobis plebem nec in potestate vestra rem publicam fuisse.

[11] non praeteribo ¹¹ id, quod gravissimum est in hoc bello crimen civitatis nostrae: legatos eodem tempore et ad vos et ad Persea de pace misimus; quod infelix consilium furiosus, ut postea audivimus,

[12] orator stultissimum fecit, quem sic locutum constat, tamquam C. Popilius legatus Romanus, quem ad summovendos a bello Antiochum et Ptolemaeum reges misistis, loqueretur.

[13] sed tamen ea sive superbia, sive stultitia appellanda est, eadem, quae apud vos, et apud Persea fuit.

[14] tam civitatium quam singulorum hominum mores sunt; gentes quoque aliae iracundae, aliae audaces, quaedam timidae, in vinum, in venerem proniores aliae sunt.

[15] atheniensium populum fama est celerem et supra vires audacem esse ad conandum, Lacedaemoniorum cunctatorem et vix in ea, quibus fidit, ingredientem.

[17] satis quidem et tunc tune in praesentia castigata illa legatio erat, cum tam tristi responso vestro dimissa. si tum parum ignominiae pensum est, haec certe tam miserabilis ac supplex legatio etiam insolentioris, quam illa fuit, legationis ¹² satis magnum piaculum esset.

[18] superbiam , verborum praesertim, iracundi oderunt, prudentes inrident, ¹³ utique si inferioris adversus superiorem est; capitali poena nemo umquam dignam iudicavit.

[19] id enimvero periculum erat, ne Romanos Rhodii contemnerent. etiam deos aliqui verbis ferocioribus increpant, nec ideo ¹⁴ quemquam fulmine ictum audimus.

Ab urbe condita libri, erklärt von M. Weissenborn Perseus (Weissenborn, W.; Müller, H. J., editors. Berlin: Weidmannsche Buchhandlung, 1873-1883.) — 45.23 focus

[1]

praemia et Philippo et Antiocho devictis amplissima accepimus a vobis. si, quae vestra nunc est fortuna deum benignitate et virtute vestra, ea Persei fuisset et praemia petitum ad victorem regem venissemus in Macedoniam, quid tandem diceremus?

[2] pecuniane a nobis adiutum an frumento? auxiliis terrestribus an navalibus? quod praesidium tenuisse nos? ubi pugnasse aut sub illius ducibus aut per nos ipsos?

[3] si quaereret, ubi miles noster, ubi navis intra praesidia sua fuisset, quid responderemus? causam fortasse diceremus apud victorem, quem ad modum apud vos dicimus.

[4] hoc enim legatos utroque de pace mittendo consecuti sumus, ut ab neutra parte gratiam iniremus, ab altera etiam crimen et periculum esset.

[5] quamquam Perseus vere obiceret, id quod vos non potestis, patres conscripti, nos principio belli misisse ad vos legatos, qui pollicerentur vobis, quae ad bellum opus essent; navalibus copiis, armis, iuventute nostra, ¹ sicut prioribus bellis, ad omnia paratos fore.

[6] ne praestaremus, per vos stetit, qui de quacumque causa tum aspernati nostra auxilia estis. neque fecimus igitur quicquam tam quam hostes, neque bonorum sociorum defuimus officio, sed a vobis prohibiti praestare non potuimus.

[7] ‘quid igitur? nihilne factum neque dictum est in civitate vestra, Rhodii, quod nolletis, quo merito offenderetur populus Romanus?’ hic iam non, quod factum est, defensurus sum — non adeo insanio —, sed publicam causam a privatorum culpa segregaturus.

[8] nulla est civitas, quae non et improbos cives aliquando et imperitam multitudinem semper habeat.

[9] etiam apud vos fuisse audivi, qui adsentando multitudini grassarentur, et secessisse aliquando a vobis plebem nec in potestate vestra rem publicam fuisse.

[11] non praeteribo id, quod gravissimum est in hoc bello crimen civitatis nostrae: legatos eodem tempore et ad vos et ad Persea de pace misimus, quod infelix consilium furiosus, ut postea audivimus,

[12] orator stultissimum fecit, quem sic locutum constat, tamquam C. Popilius legatus Romanus, quem ad summovendos a bello Antiochum et Ptolemaeum reges misistis, loqueretur.

[13] sed tamen ea sive superbia, sive stultitia appellanda est, eadem, quae apud vos, et apud Persea fuit.

[14] tam civitatium quam singulorum hominum mores sunt; gentes quoque aliae iracundae, aliae audaces, quaedam timidae, in vinum, in Venerem proniores aliae sunt.

[15] Atheniensium populum fama est celerem et supra vires audacem esse ad conandum, Lacedaemoniorum cunctatorem et vix in ea, quibus fidit, ingredientem.

[16] non negaverim et totam Asiae regionem inaniora parere ingenia et ³ nostrorum tumidiorem sermonem esse, quod excellere inter finitimas civitates videamur, et id ipsum non tam viribus nostris quam vestris honoribus ac iudiciis.

[18] superbiam, verborum praesertim, iracundi oderunt, prudentes inrident, utique si inferioris adversus superiorem est; capitali poena nemo umquam dignam iudicavit.

[19] id enim vero periculum erat, ne Romanos Rhodii contemnerent. etiam deos aliqui verbis ferocioribus increpant, nec ob id quemquam fulmine ictum audimus.

Translations (2)

History of Rome Perseus (Spillan, D.; Edmonds, Cyrus; McDevitte, William A., translators. London: Henry G. Bohn, 1849-1868. (Bohn's Classical Library)) — 45.23 focus

[1]

"When Philip and Antiochus were subdued, we received from you very ample rewards. If the fortune of Perseus were such as yours now is by the favour of the gods and your own courage, and we were to go into Macedon, to the victorious king, to demand rewards from him, what merit should we have to plead?

[2] Is it that he was aided by us with money or corn; with land or sea forces? Had we defended his garrison? where had we, either under his generals or by ourselves? If he should inquire where were our soldiers or ships acting in concert with his; what answer could we give?

[3] Perhaps we might be pleading our cause before him, if successful, as we are now, before you.

[4] All that we have gained by sending ambassadors to both, to mediate a peace, is, that we received no thanks from either party, and incurred from one of them accusations and danger.

[5] Perseus, indeed, might justly object to us what you cannot, conscript fathers, that at the commencement of the war we sent ambassadors to Rome, promising supplies of all sorts requisite for the war, and engaging to be ready, as in former wars, with our docks, our arms, and our men. It was your fault that we did not perform this, since you, whatever was the reason, rejected our assistance on that occasion.

[6] We have, therefore, neither acted in any instance as enemies, nor been deficient in the duty of well-affected allies; but we were prevented by you from performing it. What then shall we say? Rhodians, has there been nothing said or done in your country which you disapprove of, and at which the Roman people would be justly offended?

[7] Henceforth I do not mean to defend what has been done, (I am not so weak,) but to distinguish the cause of the public from the guilt of private men. For there is no nation whatever that has not, generally, some ill-disposed members, and always an ignorant populace.

[8] I have heard, that even among the Romans there have been men who worked themselves into power by courting the multitude; that the plebeians sometimes seceded from you, and that the government was not always in your hands.

[9] If it were possible for this to happen in a state so well constituted, who can wonder at there being some among us, who, out of a wish to gain the king's friendship, led our commons astray by bad advice?

[10] Yet they effected nothing more than our remaining inactive, without infringing on our duty. I shall not pass by that, which has been made the heaviest charge against our state during the war.

[11] We sent ambassadors at the same time to you and Perseus, to mediate a peace; and that unfortunate design was, by a furious orator, as we afterwards heard, rendered foolish to the last degree; for it is ascertained that he spoke in such a manner as Caius Popilius, the Roman ambassador, should have spoken, when you sent him to the two kings, Antiochus and Ptolemy, to induce them to cease from hostilities.

[12] But still, whether this conduct is to be called arrogance or folly, it was the same towards Perseus as towards you.

[13] States, as well as individuals, have their different characters; some are violent, others daring, others timid; some addicted to wine, others more particularly to women.

[14] Fame says that the Athenian nation was quick and bold, beyond its strength, in beginning an enterprise; and that the Lacedaemonian was dilatory and backward in entering upon business, even when confident of success.

[15] I cannot deny that Asia, throughout its whole extent, produces men too much inclined to vanity, and that the speech of even the Rhodians is too much tinctured with vain-glory, because we seem to have the pre-eminence above the neighbouring states;

[16] and that, too, owing not so much to our strength as to the marks of honour and esteem conferred on us by you. That embassy received on the spot sufficient reproof for its immediate misconduct, when it was dismissed with so severe an answer.

[17] But, if the disgrace which we then suffered was too trifling, surely the present mournful and suppliant embassy would be a sufficient expiation for an embassy even more insolent than that was. Irritable men hate arrogance; men of sense despise it, particularly if shown in words; more especially, if it be shown by an inferior towards a superior; but no one has ever yet thought it deserving of capital punishment.

[18] There was, in truth, danger lest the Rhodians should contemn the Romans! Some men have spoken, even of the gods, in terms too presumptuous;

[19] yet we have never heard of any one being struck with thunder on that account.

History of Rome Perseus (Volumes 1-2. Roberts, Canon, Rev, translator. London, New York: J. M. Dent and Sons; E. P. Dutton and Co., 1912.) — 45.23 focus

[1]

"After the final defeat of Philip and of Antiochus we received the most splendid rewards from you. If the good fortune which, through the kindness of heaven and your own courage, is now yours had fallen to the lot of Perseus and we had gone to Macedonia to meet the victorious king and ask him for rewards, what could we possibly say for ourselves?

[2] That he had received assistance from us in money or corn? Or in naval and military contingents? Or that we had held any fortified position for him? Or that we had fought any battles for him either under his generals or on our own account?

[3] If he were to ask where our soldiers were supplying his garrison or our ships joining his fleet, we should, perhaps, make the same defence before the victor that we are now making before you.

[4] This is what we have gained by sending envoys to both parties to urge peace-we have won the gratitude of neither, and from one side we have incurred suspicion and danger.

[5] And yet Perseus truly might bring a charge against us which you, senators, cannot bring. At the outset of the war we sent a deputation to promise assistance with whatever was needful for the war, and to assure you that everything was in readiness, our naval forces, our munitions of war, our fighting men, just as in the former wars.

[6] It was owing to you that we did not supply them; whatever the reason was, you refused our assistance. So then not only did we show no hostility to you, but we were not lacking in our duty as faithful allies, though you prohibited us from discharging it.

[7] "Some one may say, 'What then? Has nothing been done or said in your City which you disapproved of and which was such as to give just offence to the people of Rome?' I am not here now to defend what has been done-I am not so mad-but I shall draw a distinction between the cause of the State as a whole and the guilty conduct of individual citizens.

[8] There is no State which does not at some time possess bad citizens and at all times an ignorant populace.

[9] I have heard that even amongst you there have been men who made their way by flattering the mob, and that there have occasionally been secessions of the plebs when the government was no longer in your hands.

[10] If these things could happen in so well-ordered a State as this, can any one feel surprised that there have been amongst us a few men who in their desire to win the friendship of the king have led our plebs astray by their evil counsels? All the same, they did not effect anything more than make us slacken in our duty.

[11] I will not pass over what is the most serious charge brought against us with regard to this war. We sent embassies to you and to Perseus simultaneously to urge peace.

[12] This unfortunate policy has been, as we have heard, held up as abject folly by a furious orator, who it is admitted spoke in such a tone that he might have been C. Popilius, your envoy, whom you commissioned to dissuade Antiochus and Ptolemy from war.

[13] Still, whether we are to call it arrogance or folly, our policy towards you was the same as towards Perseus.

[14] "States, like individuals, have their distinctive characters, some are hot-tempered, others bold and enterprising; some are of a timid disposition, others more prone to sensual indulgence. The people of Athens are generally reported to be quick and impulsive and venture upon enterprises beyond their strength:

[15] the Lacedaemonians are said to be slow in action and only with difficulty are they brought to engage in undertakings in which they feel perfectly safe.

[16] I quite admit that Asia as a whole produces somewhat empty heads and that the language of my countrymen is somewhat inflated because we fancy ourselves superior to our neighbours. This in itself is due more to the honours which you have judged us worthy to receive than to any strength which we ourselves possessed. Surely that embassy was sufficiently chastised when it was dismissed without any reply.

[17] If the humiliation then inflicted was not enough, this embassy, at all events, with its piteous and suppliant appeal will be an adequate atonement for an even more peremptory set of negotiators than that one was. Arrogance, especially in language, is bitterly resented by hot-tempered people and laughed at by sensible people, particularly when shown by inferiors towards a superior, but no one has ever regarded it as a capital offence.

[18] Possibly some one imagined that the Rhodians felt a contempt for the Romans. Some men even abuse the gods in presumptuous language, but we do not hear of any

[19] one being struck by lightning for it.

Notes on the current edition

Ab Urbe Condita With An English Translation, books 1-10, 21-45, with periochae 11-20

1. These are enumerated in XXXIII. xxx. 11 and XXXVIII. xxxix. 13 respectively.

2. B.C. 167

3. The story of this offer, and of the dismissal of the Rhodians as soon as they appeared at the Roman naval station, is told in XLII. xlv; lvi. 6; and Polybius XXVII. 7(6).

4. Presumably the reference is to the struggles of patricians and plebeians, cf. III. xli. 5-6 and many other passages; for more recent instances, see above, p. 312, note 2.

5. The implication that the aristocracy of Rhodes favoured Rome is another indication of a situation found in many states. Cf. XLII. xxx. 1.

6. B.C. 167

7. This seems to be directly out of Thucydides I. 70-71, and must have been supplied by Livy, for Athens and Sparta had not been conspicuous for these tendencies in the second century.

8. But Cicero expressly acquits the Rhodians of indulging in

Asianic

oratory, Orator viii. 25.

9. A sin-offering, as if to gods.

10. B.C. 167

Titus Livius (Livy) Ab urbe condita 45.23

Benjamin Oliver Foster, Ph.D. (Editor), Frank Gardener Moore (Editor), Evan T. Sage, Ph.D. (Editor), Alfred C. Schlesinger, Ph.D. (Editor)

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