Titus Livius (Livy), Ab urbe condita, Benjamin Oliver Foster, Ph.D. (Editor), Frank Gardener Moore (Editor), Evan T. Sage, Ph.D. (Editor), Alfred C. Schlesinger, Ph.D. (Editor), 45.21

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[1]

Manius Juventius Thalna, the praetor with jurisdiction over suits between citizens and aliens, was stirring up the people against the Rhodians and had announced a motion to declare war against Rhodes

[2] and to choose from the magistrates of this year one to be sent to this war with a fleet (Juventius hoped that he would be the one designated). Such action was opposed by Marcus Antonius and Marcus Pomponius, tribunes of the people.

[3] But not only had the praetor in the first place undertaken the matter in a novel and dangerous fashion, because he

[4] was proposing entirely on his own initiative, without previously consulting the senate or notifying the consuls, to put to the people the question, whether it was their will and command that war should be declared against the Rhodians, whereas previously the senate had always been consulted first about war, and then the question brought before the people

[5] on the authority of the senate, ¹ but the tribunes also were in the same position, since the custom was that no one should veto a law until opportunity was given to private citizens ² to argue for and against the law;

[6] in this way it had often turned out either that those who had not announced that they would exercise the ³ veto did so when the faults of the law had been called to their attention by the speeches of those who opposed the law, or that those who had come intending to veto were overborne by the prestige of those who argued for the law.

[7] On this occasion the praetor and the tribunes vied with each other in doing everything in the wrong order; the tribunes by their premature veto . . . the haste of the praetor . . .

[8] till the arrival of the general . . ⁴

Ab urbe condita. Titus Livius (Livy). Benjamin Oliver Foster, Ph.D. (Editor), Frank Gardener Moore (Editor), Evan T. Sage, Ph.D. (Editor), Alfred C. Schlesinger, Ph.D. (Editor). Medford, MA. .

Sponsored by Perseus Project, Tufts University.

Funding provided by The National Endowment for the Humanities.

Current edition Perseus

History of Rome (English) (Foster, Benjamin Oliver; Moore, Frank Gardener; Sage, Evan T.; Schlesinger, Alfred C., translators. Cambridge, Mass.; London: Harvard University Press; William Heinemann, Ltd., 1919-1959. (Loeb Classical Library))

Editions (3)

Ab urbe condita Perseus (Pars I-IV, Libri I-XL. Editio Stereotypica. Weissenborn, Wilhelm; Mueller, Moritz, editors. Leipzig: Teubner, 1884-1911.) — 45.21 focus

[1] M’. Iuventius Talna praetor, cuius inter cives et peregrinos iurisdictio erat, populum adversus Rhodios incitabat rogationemque promulgaverat,

[2] ut Rhodiis bellum indiceretur, et ex magistratibus eius anni deligerent, qui ad id bellum cum classe mitteretur, se eum sperans futurum esse.

[3] huic actioni M. Antonius et M. Pomponius tribuni plebis adversabantur.

[4] sed et praetor novo maloque exemplo rem ingressus erat, quod non ante consulto senatu, non consulibus certioribus factis de sua unius sententia rogationem ferret, vellent iuberentne Rhodiis bellum indici,

[5] cum antea semper prius senatus de bello consultus esset, deinde ex auctoritate patrum ad populum latum,

[6] et tribuni plebis, cum ita traditum esset, ne quis prius intercederet legi, quam privatis suadendi dissuadendique legem potestas facta esset, eoque persaepe evenisset, ut et, qui non professi essent se intercessuros, animadversis vitiis legis ex oratione dissuadentium intercederent, et, qui ad intercedendum venissent, desisterent victi auctoritatibus suadentium legem.

[7] tum inter praetorem tribunosque omnia intempestive agendi certamen erat:

[8] tribuni festinationem praetoris ante tempus intercedendo in adventum imperatoris

Ab urbe condita Perseus (Livy in Fourteen Volumes. Foster, Benjamin Oliver; Moore, Frank Gardener; Schlesinger, Alfred C., editors. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press; London: William Heinemann, Ltd., 1919-1959 (printing).) — 45.21 focus

[1]

M'. ¹ Iuventius Thalna praetor, cuius inter cives et peregrinos iurisdictio erat, populum adversus Rhodios incitabat rogationemque promulgaverat,

[2] ut Rhodiis bellum indiceretur, et ex magistratibus eius anni deligerent qui ad id bellum cum classe mitteretur, se eum sperans futurum esse.

[3] huic actioni M. Antonius et M. Pomponius tribuni plebis adversabantur.

[5] cum antea semper prius senatus de bello consultus esset, deinde ex auctoritate ² patrum ad populum latum,

[6] et tribuni plebis, cum ita traditum esset, ne quis prius intercederet legi quam privatis suadendi dissuadendique legem potestas facta esset, eoque persaepe evenisset, ut et ³ qui non professi essent se intercessuros, animadversis vitiis legis ex ⁴ oratione ⁵ dissuadentium intercederent,

[7] et qui ad intercedendum venissent, desisterent victi auctoritatibus suadentium legem. tum inter praetorem tribunosque omnia intempestive agendi certamen erat;

[8] tribuni festinationem praetoris ante tempus intercedendo.. . ⁶ in adventum imperatoris . . . ⁷

Ab urbe condita libri, erklärt von M. Weissenborn Perseus (Weissenborn, W.; Müller, H. J., editors. Berlin: Weidmannsche Buchhandlung, 1873-1883.) — 45.21 focus

[1]

M'. Iuventius Thalna praetor, cuius inter cives et peregrinos iurisdictio erat, populum adversus Rhodios incitabat rogationemque promulgaverat,

[2] ut Rhodiis bellum indiceretur, et ex magistratibus eius anni deligerent, qui ad id bellum cum classe mitteretur, se eum sperans futurum esse.

[3] huic actioni M. Antonius et M. Pomponius tribuni plebis adversabantur.

[4] sed et praetor novo maloque exemplo rem ingressus erat, quod non ante ¹ consulto senatu, non consulibus certioribus factis de sua unius sententia rogationem ferret, vellent iuberentne Rhodiis bellum indici, cum antea semper prius senatus de bello consultus esset,

[5] deinde ex auctoritate patrum ad populum latum,

[7] qui ad intercedendum venissent, desisterent victi auctoritatibus suadentium legem. tum inter praetorem tribunosque omnia ² intempestive agendi certamen erat:

[8] tribuni festinationem praetoris ante tempus intercedendo in adventum im peratoris ‘

Translations (2)

History of Rome Perseus (Spillan, D.; Edmonds, Cyrus; McDevitte, William A., translators. London: Henry G. Bohn, 1849-1868. (Bohn's Classical Library)) — 45.21 focus

[1]

Marcus Juventius Thalna, the praetor who had the jurisdiction between natives and foreigners, stimulated the public resentment against the Rhodians, and promulgated a bill, that

war should be declared against the Rhodians, and that the people should choose one of the magistrates of the present year, who should be sent with a fleet to carry on that war;

with the hope that he himself should be the person chosen.

[2] Two of the plebeian tribunes, Marcus Antonius and Marcus Pomponius, opposed this proceeding. But the praetor, on his part, commenced the business in an unprecedented and pernicious manner; for without first consulting the senate, and without acquainting the consuls, of his own sole judgment he proposed to the people the question,

was it their will and order that war should be declared against the Rhodians?

whereas, ever until then, the senate was first consulted concerning the war, and then the business was laid before the people.

[3] On the other side, the plebeian tribunes opposed this proceeding; although it was a received rule that no tribune should protest against a proposal, until opportunity was given to private citizens to argue for and against it; in consequence of which it had often happened that some, who had avowed no intention of protesting, having discovered defects in the law from the discourses of those who opposed it, on that account did protest; and some who came avowedly to protest, abstained from it, being convinced by the arguments of those who spoke in favour of the law.

[4] On this occasion the praetor and tribunes vied with each other in doing every thing out of time. ¹

History of Rome Perseus (Volumes 1-2. Roberts, Canon, Rev, translator. London, New York: J. M. Dent and Sons; E. P. Dutton and Co., 1912.) — 45.21 focus

[1]

M. Juventius Thalna, who was the praetor in charge of the alien jurisdiction, was inciting the populace against the Rhodians and had proposed a resolution that war should be

[2] declared against Rhodes, and that one of the magistrates for the year should be chosen to command the fleet, hoping that he himself would be appointed. Two of the tribunes of the plebs, M. Antonius and M. Pomponius, opposed this proceeding.

[3] The praetor himself had acted in defiance of precedent, for he was making the proposal on his own initiative without consulting the senate or informing the consuls of the question he was going to put, viz.

[4] whether it was the will and order of the people of Rome that war should be declared against Rhodes. Hitherto the senate had always been consulted on the question of war, and then, if the senate gave their sanction, the question was submitted to the popular Assembly.

[5] The tribunes of the plebs, too, were in the wrong, because the traditional usage was that no one should veto a measure until the citizens had had the opportunity of speaking for or against it.

[6] Hence it had very frequently happened that those who had asserted that they would not interpose their veto did interpose after the opponents of the measure had made them aware of its defects, whilst on the other hand those who had come prepared to veto a measure were convinced by the arguments of its supporters and withdrew their veto.

[7] On this occasion the praetors and the tribunes vied with each other as to who could act most precipitately; the tribunes forestalled the praetor by interposing their veto

[8] before the right time . . .

Notes on the current edition

Ab Urbe Condita With An English Translation, books 1-10, 21-45, with periochae 11-20

1. There was precedent, however, for action by the assembly over senatorial opposition, see XXI. lxiii. 3; XXXVIII. xxxvi. 8, and the note. A constitutional question is involved: war was regularly declared by the centuriate assembly, the oldest and least democratic gathering; but could the praetor summon this assembly, except for judicial purposes? The decision to relieve Messana which opened the First Punic War is a near parallel, though one faction of the senate led the appeal to the commons (Polybius I. 11. 1-3).

2. Not excluding magistrates; Livy takes it for granted that they might address a meeting; for examples, see XXXIV. i. 7; v. 1; XLIII. xvi. 8.

3. B.C. 167

4. Polybius XXX. 4.6 says that Antonius, who had removed the praetor Juventius from the Rostra, introduced the Rhodians to the senate; Philophron spoke first, then Astymedes; Livy undertakes to reproduce the speech of the latter, though it is not found in Polybius, who criticized its tone adversely.

Titus Livius (Livy) Ab urbe condita 45.21

Benjamin Oliver Foster, Ph.D. (Editor), Frank Gardener Moore (Editor), Evan T. Sage, Ph.D. (Editor), Alfred C. Schlesinger, Ph.D. (Editor)

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