James Adam, Commentary on Plato, Republic, ed. James Adam, 4.425C

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[425C] τελευτῶν ‐‐ ἀγαθόν . Cf. 424 A ἐάνπερ ἅπαξ ὁρμήσῃ εὖ, ἔρχεται ὥσπερ κύκλος αὐξανομένη.

οὐκ ἂν ἔτι . On ἔτι see III 412 B note

τί δέ; κτλ. ‘Once more: in heaven's name, said I, these markettroubles about contracts which the different classes of citizens make with one another in the market-place etc.—shall we condescend to make laws about any of them?’ I have placed a mark of interrogation after τί δέ (quid vero?): cf. 422 D note and 426 A. This increases the emphasis on ὦ πρὸς θεῶν: cf. I 332 C ὦ πρὸς Διός, ἦν δ’ ἐγώ, εἰ οὖν κτλ. Herwerden puts the pause after τάδε, where it is less suitable; others wrongly omit the word. ταδε (see cr. n.) cannot well be dispensed with: it means ‘these familiar’: cf. III 403 E, and for the omission in A Introd. § 5. Herwerden also cuts out ἀγοραῖα on account of κατ’ ἀγοράν, but the reduplication is quite in Plato's way. The postponement of ἅ throws emphasis on κατ’ ἀγοράν, and thereby helps to contrast ἀγοραῖα ξυμβόλαια with χειροτεχνικά etc.: cf. III 390 B. It is natural to see in this sentence a reference to the judicial and mercantile arrangements of Athens and her empire: see 424 D note

Commentary on Plato, Republic. James Adam. ed. James Adam. Cambridge. 1926-1929.

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Current edition Perseus

Commentary on Plato, Republic (English) (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.)

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Πολιτεία Perseus (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.) — 4.425 focus

[425]
οὐκοῦν, ὃ ἐξ ἀρχῆς ἐλέγομεν, τοῖς ἡμετέροις παισὶν ἐννομωτέρου εὐθὺς παιδιᾶς μεθεκτέον, ὡς παρανόμου γιγνομένης αὐτῆς καὶ παίδων τοιούτων ἐννόμους τε καὶ σπουδαίους 425a ἐξ αὐτῶν ἄνδρας αὐξάνεσθαι ἀδύνατον ὄν;
πῶς δʼ οὐχί; ἔφη.
ὅταν δὴ ἄρα καλῶς ἀρξάμενοι παῖδες παίζειν εὐνομίαν διὰ τῆς μουσικῆς εἰσδέξωνται, πάλιν τοὐναντίον ἢ ʼκείνοις εἰς πάντα συνέπεταί τε καὶ αὔξει, ἐπανορθοῦσα εἴ τι καὶ πρότερον τῆς πόλεως ἔκειτο.
ἀληθῆ μέντοι, ἔφη.
καὶ τὰ σμικρὰ ἄρα, εἶπον, δοκοῦντα εἶναι νόμιμα ἐξευρίσκουσιν οὗτοι, ἃ οἱ πρότερον ἀπώλλυσαν πάντα.
τὰ ποῖα; 425b
τὰ τοιάδε· σιγάς τε τῶν νεωτέρων παρὰ πρεσβυτέροις ἃς πρέπει, καὶ κατακλίσεις καὶ ὑπαναστάσεις καὶ γονέων θεραπείας, καὶ κουράς γε καὶ ἀμπεχόνας καὶ ὑποδέσεις καὶ ὅλον τὸν τοῦ σώματος σχηματισμὸν καὶ τἆλλα ὅσα τοιαῦτα. ἢ οὐκ οἴει;
ἔγωγε.
νομοθετεῖν δʼ αὐτὰ οἶμαι εὔηθες· οὔτε γάρ που γίγνεται οὔτʼ ἂν μείνειεν λόγῳ τε καὶ γράμμασιν νομοθετηθέντα.
πῶς γάρ;
κινδυνεύει γοῦν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Ἀδείμαντε, ἐκ τῆς παιδείας 425c ὅποι ἄν τις ὁρμήσῃ, τοιαῦτα καὶ τὰ ἑπόμενα εἶναι. ἢ οὐκ ἀεὶ τὸ ὅμοιον ὂν ὅμοιον παρακαλεῖ;
τί μήν;
καὶ τελευτῶν δὴ οἶμαι φαῖμεν ἂν εἰς ἕν τι τέλεον καὶ νεανικὸν ἀποβαίνειν αὐτὸ ἢ ἀγαθὸν ἢ καὶ τοὐναντίον.
τί γὰρ οὔκ; ἦ δʼ ὅς.
ἐγὼ μὲν τοίνυν, εἶπον, διὰ ταῦτα οὐκ ἂν ἔτι τὰ τοιαῦτα ἐπιχειρήσαιμι νομοθετεῖν.
εἰκότως γʼ, ἔφη.
τί δέ, ὦ πρὸς θεῶν, ἔφην, τάδε τὰ ἀγοραῖα, συμβολαίων τε πέρι κατʼ ἀγορὰν ἕκαστοι ἃ πρὸς ἀλλήλους συμβάλλουσιν, 425d εἰ δὲ βούλει, καὶ χειροτεχνικῶν περὶ συμβολαίων καὶ λοιδοριῶν καὶ αἰκίας καὶ δικῶν λήξεως καὶ δικαστῶν καταστάσεως, καὶ εἴ που τελῶν τινες ἢ πράξεις ἢ θέσεις ἀναγκαῖοί εἰσιν ἢ κατʼ ἀγορὰς ἢ λιμένας, ἢ καὶ τὸ παράπαν ἀγορανομικὰ ἄττα ἢ ἀστυνομικὰ ἢ ἐλλιμενικὰ ἢ ὅσα ἄλλα τοιαῦτα, τούτων τολμήσομέν τι νομοθετεῖν;
ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἄξιον, ἔφη, ἀνδράσι καλοῖς κἀγαθοῖς ἐπιτάττειν· 425e τὰ πολλὰ γὰρ αὐτῶν, ὅσα δεῖ νομοθετήσασθαι, ῥᾳδίως που εὑρήσουσιν.
ναί, ὦ φίλε, εἶπον, ἐάν γε θεὸς αὐτοῖς διδῷ σωτηρίαν τῶν νόμων ὧν ἔμπροσθεν διήλθομεν.
εἰ δὲ μή γε, ἦ δʼ ὅς, πολλὰ τοιαῦτα τιθέμενοι ἀεὶ καὶ ἐπανορθούμενοι τὸν βίον διατελοῦσιν, οἰόμενοι ἐπιλήψεσθαι τοῦ βελτίστου.
λέγεις, ἔφην ἐγώ, βιώσεσθαι τοὺς τοιούτους ὥσπερ τοὺς κάμνοντάς τε καὶ οὐκ ἐθέλοντας ὑπὸ ἀκολασίας ἐκβῆναι πονηρᾶς διαίτης.

Translations (1)

Republic Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).) — 4.425 focus

[425] Then, as we were saying¹ in the beginning, our youth must join in a more law-abiding play, since, if play grows lawless and the children likewise, 425a it is impossible that they should grow up to be men of serious temper and lawful spirit. Of course, he said. And so we may reason that when children in their earliest play are imbued with the spirit of law and order through their music, the opposite of the former supposition happens—this spirit waits upon them in all things and fosters their growth, and restores and sets up again whatever was overthrown in the other² type of state. True, indeed, he said. Then such men rediscover for themselves those seemingly trifling conventions which their predecessors abolished altogether. Of what sort? Such things as 425b the becoming silence³ of the young in the presence of their elders; the giving place to them and rising up before them, and dutiful service of parents, and the cut of the hair⁴ and the garments and the fashion of the foot-gear, and in general the deportment of the body and everything of the kind. Don’t you think so? I do. Yet to enact them into laws would, I think, be silly.⁵ For such laws are not obeyed nor would they last, being enacted only in words and on paper. How could they? At any rate, Adeimantus, I said, the direction of the education from whence one starts is likely to determine 425c the quality of what follows. Does not like ever summon like? Surely. And the final⁶ outcome, I presume, we would say is one complete and vigorous product of good or the reverse. Of course, said he. For my part, then, I said, for these reasons I would not go on to try to legislate on such matters.⁷ With good reason, said he. But what, in heaven’s name, said I, about business matters, the deals⁸ that men make with one another in the agora— 425d and, if you please, contracts with workmen⁹ and actions for foul language¹⁰ and assault, the filing of declarations,¹¹ the impanelling of juries, the payment and exaction of any dues that may be needful in markets or harbors and in general market, police or harbor regulations and the like, can we bring¹² ourselves to legislate about these? Nay, ʼtwould not be fitting, he said, to dictate to good and honorable men.¹³ For most of the enactments that are needed about these things 425e they will easily, I presume, discover. Yes, my friend, provided God grants them the preservation of the principles of law that we have already discussed. Failing that, said he, they will pass their lives multiplying such petty laws and amending them in the expectation of attaining what is best. You mean, said I, that the life of such citizens will resemble that of men who are sick, yet from intemperance are unwilling to abandon¹⁴ their unwholesome regimen.

James Adam Commentary on Plato, Republic 4.425C

ed. James Adam

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