Aristotle Poetics 15.3

ed. Henry James Pye

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And if that propensity is bad, the manners will be bad, if good, they will be good and that in every condition of life. A woman or even a slave may be drawn with this excellence of character, though it is probable that a woman should be worse than a man and that a slave should be absolutely bad.

Poetics. Aristotle. ed. Henry James Pye. London. 1792.

Current edition Experimental

The Poetic of Aristotle (Henry James Pye, revised 1792) (OCR draft) (English) (Henry James Pye's revised 1792 English translation, corrected against the 1788 first edition, aligned to the Kassel reference edition, and supplied with a selective apparatus of substantive 1788 readings.)

Provisional text from uncorrected OCR; expect errors.

Editions (4)
Περὶ ποιητικῆς (OCR draft) (Aristotle, Poetics. Immanuel Bekker, editor, Aristotelis Opera, volume 2. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1837.) — 15 focus
Περὶ ποιητικῆς (OCR draft) Perseus (Aristotle, De arte poetica liber. Rudolf Kassel, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1965. Reference edition for passage alignment.) — 15 focus
Poetics, Greek text (Ingram Bywater, 1909) (OCR draft) Experimental (Ingram Bywater's Greek text of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1909.) — 15 focus
Poetics, Greek text (Franz Ritter, 1839) (OCR draft) Experimental (Franz Ritter's 1839 Greek edition, corrected against OCR of the represented copy and aligned to the conventional Perseus chapter-and-subchapter sequence.) — 15 focus
Translations (13)
Poetics (W. H. Fyfe) (OCR draft) Perseus (William Hamilton Fyfe's English translation of Aristotle's Poetics, Loeb Classical Library, 1939 printing.) — 15 focus
Arabic Poetics (Badawī edition, 1953) (OCR draft) (The ancient Arabic translation of Aristotle's Poetics in ʿAbd al-Raḥmān Badawī's 1953 edition.) — 15 focus
Poetics (S. H. Butcher, 1911) (OCR draft) Experimental (S. H. Butcher's English translation from Aristotle's Theory of Poetry and Fine Art, fourth edition, 1911.) — 15 focus
Aristotle on the Art of Poetry (Ingram Bywater, 1909) (OCR draft) Experimental (Ingram Bywater's English translation of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1909.) — 15 focus
Poetics (Thomas Twining, 1789) (OCR draft) Experimental (Thomas Twining's English translation of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1789 and aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 15.3 focus
This goodness of manners may be found in persons of every description: the manners of a woman, or of a slave, may be good; though, in general, women are, perhaps, rather bad, than good, and slaves, altogether bad 1 .
The Poetic of Aristotle (Theodore Alois Buckley) (OCR draft) Experimental (Theodore Alois Buckley's English translation, first published in 1850 and represented from the Henry G. Bohn 1857 printing; corrected against a second OCR and aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 15.3 focus
But manners are to be found in each genus; for both a woman and a slave may be good; though perhaps of these, the one is 1 2 3 less good2, and the other is wholly bad3. 4
Poetica Latine conversa (Franciscus Ritter, 1839) (OCR draft) Experimental (Franz Ritter's Latin translation, corrected against OCR of the represented copy and aligned to the conventional Perseus chapter-and-subchapter sequence.) — 15 focus
La poëtique d'Aristote (André Dacier, 1692) (OCR draft) Experimental (André Dacier's French translation of Aristotle's Poetics, published in 1692.) — 15.3 focus
Et cette bonté de mœurs ſe trouve dans toute ſorte de conditions, car une femme peut être bonne & un valet même peut être bon, quoique communément les femmes ſoient plûtôt mauvaiſes que bonnes, & que les valets ſoient abſolument méchans.
Poetica d'Aristotile (Bernardo Segni, 1549) (OCR draft) Experimental (Bernardo Segni's 1549 Florentine Italian translation, aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 15 focus
De poetica (Antonio Riccobono, 1587) (OCR draft) Experimental (Antonio Riccobono's Latin translation, first published in 1587; text represented from Immanuel Bekker's 1831 edition.) — 15 focus
De arte poetica liber (William of Moerbeke, ca. 1277) (OCR draft) Experimental (William of Moerbeke's medieval Latin translation, represented by the 1953 Aristoteles Latinus edition.) — 15 focus
Arabic Poetics (Abū Bishr Mattā; Tkatsch edition) (OCR draft) Experimental (The Arabic translation attributed to Abū Bishr Mattā, edited by Jaroslaus Tkatsch in 1928 and aligned to the Kassel reference passage sequence.) — 15 focus
Arabic Poetics (Abū Bishr Mattā; Tkatsch edition, unaligned) (OCR draft) Experimental (Tkatsch's edition of the medieval Arabic translation in its original, unaligned segmentation.) — 15 focus

Commentary

Commentary on the Poetics (Ingram Bywater, 1909) (OCR draft) (Ingram Bywater's English commentary on Aristotle's Poetics.) focus

3. mvp-aristotle-comment-524

τὸ μὲν χεῖρον: Pol. 1. 5, 1254 b 13
τὸ ἄρρεν πρὸς τὸ θῆλυ φύσει τὸ μὲν κρεῖττον τὸ δὲ χεῖρον
. — H. A. 9. 1, 608 b 8
διόπερ γυνὴ ἀνδρὸς ἐλεημονέστερον καὶ ἀρίδακρυ μᾶλλον, ἔτι δὲ φθονερώτερον καὶ μεμψιμοιρότερον καὶ φιλολοίδορον μᾶλλον καὶ πληκτικώτερον· ἔστι δὲ καὶ δύσθυμον μᾶλλον τὸ θῆλυ τοῦ ἄρρενος καὶ δύσελπι καὶ ἀναιδέστερον καὶ ψευδέστερον κτέ.
In the Politics we are told that owing to the weakness of the rational faculty in them, the virtue of which women are capable is not so high as that of a man ( Pol. 1. 13, 1260 a 20 ). Rhet. 1. 5, 1361 b 26 summarizes the Greek idea on this point: θηλειῶν ἀρετὴ σώματος μὲν κάλλος καὶ μέγεθος, ψυχῆς δὲ σωφροσύνη καὶ φιλεργία ἄνευ ἀνελευθερίας.

3. mvp-aristotle-comment-525

ὅλως φαῦλον. In the Politics, where the slave is viewed as a being of the very lowest intellectual and moral capacity, Aristotle allows him only the bare modicum of virtue required to enable him to do his work : ἀρετῆς δεῖται μικρᾶς καὶ τοσαύτης ὅπως μήτε δι' ἀκολασίαν μήτε διὰ δειλίαν ἐλλείψῃ τῶν ἔργων ( Pol. 1. 13, 1260 b 35 ).
22

Remarques sur la poëtique d'Aristote (André Dacier, 1692) (OCR draft) (André Dacier's French commentary on Aristotle's Poetics.) focus

2. mvp-aristotle-comment-362

15.3 Qucyque communément les femmes ſoient plutôt mauvai-ſes que bonnes.] 1

3. mvp-aristotle-comment-363

15.3 Et que les valets ſoient abſolument méchans.] 2

Commentary on the Poetics (Thomas Twining, 1789) (OCR draft) (Thomas Twining's notes on Aristotle's Poetics, aligned to the Kassel reference edition.) focus

109. mvp-aristotle-comment-109

NOTE 109. P. 92.

15.3 IN GENERAL, WOMEN ARE, PERHAPS, RATHER BAD THAN GOOD. —
"Aristote,"
says M. Batteux,
"ne parle pas içi des femmes en général, mais seulement de celles que les Poetes ont mises sur le Théâtre, telles que Medée, Clytemneitre," &c.
This is polite; but it will not make Aristotle polite. He speaks plainly; and what he says is, I fear, but too conformable to the manner in which the antients usually speak of the sex in general. At least, he is certainly consistent with himself: witness the following very curious character of women in his History of Animals , which I give the reader, by no means for his assent, but for his wonder, or his diversion.
Γυνη, ανδρος ελεημονεστερον και αριδακρυ μαλλον· ετι δε φθονερωτερον τε και μεμψιμοιροτερον, και ΦΙΛΟΛΟΙΔΟΡΟΝ μαλλον, και ΠΛΗΚΤΙΚΩΤΕΡΟΝ. ετι δε και δυσθυμον μαλλον και δυσελπι, και ΑΝΑΙΔΕΣΤΕΡΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΨΕΥΔΕΣΤΕΡΟΝ, ευαπατητοτερον τε, και μνημονικωτερον· ετι δε, ΑΓΡΥΠΝΟΤΕΡΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΟΚΝΗΡΟΤΕΡΟΝ και ολως ακινητοτερον κ. τ. αλ.
To make the reader amends for the pain which this cool and serious invective of the philosopher and the naturalist may have given him, I cannot resist the temptation of presenting him with a specimen of more sportive satire on this subject, in a very pleasant fragment, preserved by Athenæus, from a Comedy of Eubulus.
Ω Ζευ πολυτιμητ᾿, ει κακως εγω ποτε
Ερω γυναικας, νη $\Delta$ι᾿ απολοιμην αρα.
Παντων αριστον κτηματων. ειδ᾿ εγενετο
Κακη γυνη Μηδεια, Πηνελοπεια δε
Μεγα πραγμα. —ερει τις ως Κλυταιμνηστρα κακη;
Αλκηστιν αντεθηκα χρηστην. —αλλ᾿ ισως
Φαιδραν ερει κακως τις· αλλα, νη $\Delta$ια,
Χρηστη τις ην μεντοι ----τις; —οιμοι, δειλαιος·
Ταχεως γε μ᾿ αι ΧΡΗΣΤΑΙ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΕΣ επελιπον.
Τωνδ᾿ αυ ΠΟΝΗΡΩΝ ετι λεγειν πολλας εχω.
Athen. p. 559, or the Excerpta ex Trag. &c. of Grotius, p. 657.
If ever against woman-kind I rail,
Great Jupiter confound me!—for of all
The good things of this world, they are the best.
Medea, you will say, was bad:—agreed;
But, what a jewel was Penelope!
Urge you the wicked Clytemnestra?—I,
Oppose the good Alcestis. If you tell me
Of Phædra, I remind you of the good,
—Stay, let me see the good—Alas! how soon
My memory fails me there; while, of the bad,
Examples in abundance still occur.—
See Athen. p. 559, or the Excerpta ex Trag. &c. of Grotius, p. 657.

Commentary on the Poetics (Henry James Pye, 1792) (OCR draft) (Henry James Pye's 1792 English commentary, aligned to the Kassel reference edition.) focus

15.3. mvp-aristotle-comment-52 15.3

THE NEXT REQUISITE IS THEIR BEING CHARACTERISTIC.

BY characteristic is meant confonant with the profession, rank, fex, and age of the perfon. This is clearly defined as to the last condition by Horace in his Epistle to the Pifos [c]. The celebrated speech of Jaques in As You Like It, describing the seven ages of man's life, seems an imitation of this passage in Horace. But with all the veneration I have for Shakespear, I cannot agree with Mr. Colman in thinking his alteration in making two of his examples characteristic of station, instead of age, an improvement; fince comparatively confidered, so few men are ever either soldiers or justices. I say two examples, though Mr. Colman makes them three, enumerating the lover in them. But here I think Shakespear has adhered more to general nature than Horace. Love is certainly more naturally characteristic of youth than hunting. An objection has been made to Iago as a deviation from this rule, as the character of an artful revengeful villain is very opposite to that of a soldier: and had Iago been the only foldier in the play the objection would have been just, as in that case he must have been confidered as representing the general manners of the profession. But as in Othello all the principal persons of the drama are soldiers, the manners are characteristic of the individual not of the profeffion. From national prejution. [c] See v. 156 to v. 178 in the original, and v. 230 to v. 265 in Mr. Colman's tranfladice
POETIC OF ARISTOTLE. dice we are apt to be rather unfavorable in our representation of French characters; and had Parolles been the only Frenchman in ' All's Well ' that Ends Well, we should not scruple to confider him as an example of fuch prejudice; but as the scene lies in France chiefly, no such idea is ever entertained [D]. As to the propriety of character, the ghosts, witches, and fairies of Shakespear, are deservedly allowed superior excellence, as they certainly act in conformity with the manners, we impute to such imaginary beings did they really exist. Yet Shakespear had here some archetype to follow; for popular opinion had already marked the outline of their habits, which was as advantageous to him in giving them characteristic manners as it was difadvantageous to (E) Milton in giving Satan poetical excellence of manners. But how Shakespear (F) has contrived in such characters as Caliban, the pure creation of his own imagination, to give to what never did, and never was supposed to exist, such manners as we are irresistibly impelled by our feelings to pronounce truly characteristic, is a power of art that criticism is as inadequate to investigate, as genius to imitate. [D] See Bishop Warburton's Defence of Shakespear in this instance against the hypercriticism of Rhymer. [E] See Note I. on this chapter. [F] See Effay on the Dramatic Character of Falstaff, page 75, note. NOTE

Commentarius in Aristotelis Poeticam (Franciscus Ritter, 1839) (OCR draft) (Ritter's Latin commentary, extracted from the 1839 volume, divided by Ritter's chapters and sections, and linked to the corresponding Perseus reference subsections.) focus

1. mvp-aristotle-comment-101

Ritter, cap. 15 § 1

Quae in exprimendis moribus personarum agentium tragico poetae observanda sint, quae fugienda docetur. Mores hominum in tragoedia agentium proximo post fabulam loco cum supra (c. 6, 14) collocati essent, nemo quidem mirabitur post absolutam fabulae explicationem auctorem adgredi ad morum pertractationem, sed id mirum videbitur unicuique attento animo totum librum perlegenti, ab hoc loco nimium languescere argumenti propositi expositionem, adeo ut modo nonnisi disiecta membra summi philosophi et prudentissimi hominis agnoscere videamur, modo virum ineptum et sola doctrina superbientem intueamur. prius illud cadit in disputationem quae c. 15. continetur. de moribus enim tragoediae pauca quaedam et ieiuna digitis enumerantur adiectis quibusdam non contemnendis observationibus. sed tam arida et tenuis est haec expositio, ut qui eam antecedenticomparaverit, vix Aristotele dignam iudicare possit. num, igitur pro suppositicia habenda est? non puto: nam quae interpolator ille a nobis saepe per hunc librum deprehensus inseruit, ea tot indiciis coarguuntur, ut haec de moribus dicta isti tribuere non possim. itaque sic statuo, Ari! stotelis de moribus disputationem ab isto interpolatore in epitomam redactam et nonnullis in locis mutatam ad nos per venisse. : ὅπως χρηστά ᾖ: hoc praeceptum consequitur ex illis quae с. 13, 1-4. exposita leguntur. conf. c. 2 extr ceterum is cuius probi mores sunt minoribus nihilo minus vін! tiis obnoxius esse et magnis erroribus constrictus teneri potr est. – ὥσπερ ἐλέχθη: epitomator idemque interpolator ad sua ipsius (c. 6, 17) bona ante exprompta provocat. χρηστὸν δ' ἐὰν χρηστήν: quod ante χρηστὸν plerique codices ἢ vel ἢ addunt, id ex proximo versu ( χρηστὰ ᾖ) huc delatum est. in editionibus praeterea legimus φαῦλον μὲν ἐὰν φαύλην, sed hoc additamentum abest ab AcBcNa et. M omnibus et LPQ, neque adesse oportet, cum dicenti nihil propositum sit, nisi ut quos intelligat bonos mores indicet. me: lius adeo et facilius sequentia sic succedunt. nam cum scribit ἔστι δὲ ἐν ἑκάστῳ γένει, ad ἔστι intelligendum est χρηστὸν ἦθος, idque fieri commode potest, si sola illa χρηστὸν δ᾽ ἐὰν χρηστήν praecesserunt. καίτοι γε ἴσως-φαῦλόν ἐστιν: genus muliebre virili comparatum sequius est et deterius, et servorum genus. cum liberis et ingenuis collatum omnino vile est, sed in suo genere unusquisque bene moratus esse ac studere rebus honestis potest. mira haec nobis videri solent, sed Aristotelis non minus severum de feminis iudicium legimus in eius Hi storia animalium IX, 1. p. 608 b 8-15.