Plato, Laws, ed. John Burnet, 1

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[624] 624a

ΑΘ.

θεὸς ἤ τις ἀνθρώπων ὑμῖν, ὦ ξένοι, εἴληφε τὴν αἰτίαν τῆς τῶν νόμων διαθέσεως;

ΚΛ.

θεός, ὦ ξένε, θεός, ὥς γε τὸ δικαιότατον εἰπεῖν· παρὰ μὲν ἡμῖν Ζεύς, παρὰ δὲ Λακεδαιμονίοις, ὅθεν ὅδε ἐστίν, οἶμαι φάναι τούτους Ἀπόλλωνα. ἦ γάρ;

ΜΕ.

ναί.

ΑΘ.

μῶν οὖν καθʼ Ὅμηρον λέγεις ὡς τοῦ Μίνω φοιτῶντος 624b πρὸς τὴν τοῦ πατρὸς ἑκάστοτε συνουσίαν διʼ ἐνάτου ἔτους καὶ κατὰ τὰς παρʼ ἐκείνου φήμας ταῖς πόλεσιν ὑμῖν θέντος τοὺς νόμους;

ΑΘ.

ναί.

ΚΛ.

καὶ τοῦτο ὀρθῶς ἤρου· πάνυ γὰρ ἔστι καὶ σφόδρα τὸ τοιοῦτον, οὐχ ἥκιστα ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν. ἐν ὁπόσαις μὲν γὰρ οἱ ἀμείνονες νικῶσιν τὸ πλῆθος καὶ τοὺς χείρους, ὀρθῶς ἂν αὕτη κρείττων τε ἑαυτῆς λέγοιθʼ ἡ πόλις, ἐπαινοῖτό τε ἂν δικαιότατα τῇ τοιαύτῃ νίκῃ· τοὐναντίον δέ, ὅπου τἀναντία.

627b

ΑΘ.

ΑΘ.

[629] 629a

ΑΘ.

τάχʼ ἂν ἴσως· δεῖ δὲ οὐδὲν σκληρῶς ἡμᾶς αὐτοῖς διαμάχεσθαι τὰ νῦν ἀλλʼ ἠρέμα ἀνερωτᾶν, ὡς μάλιστα περὶ ταῦτα ἡμῶν τε καὶ ἐκείνων σπουδαζόντων. καί μοι τῷ λόγῳ συνακολουθήσατε. προστησώμεθα γοῦν Τύρταιον, τὸν φύσει μὲν Ἀθηναῖον, τῶνδε δὲ πολίτην γενόμενον, ὃς δὴ μάλιστα ἀνθρώπων περὶ ταῦτα ἐσπούδακεν εἰπὼν ὅτι—

οὔτʼ ἂν μνησαίμην οὔτʼ ἐν λόγῳ ἄνδρα τιθείμην

Tyrtaeus 12 Bergk 629b

οὔτʼ εἴ τις πλουσιώτατος ἀνθρώπων εἴη, φησίν, οὔτʼ εἰ πολλὰ ἀγαθὰ κεκτημένος, εἰπὼν σχεδὸν ἅπαντα, ὃς μὴ περὶ τὸν πόλεμον ἄριστος γίγνοιτʼ ἀεί.

Tyrtaeus 12 Bergk ταῦτα γὰρ ἀκήκοάς που καὶ σὺ τὰ ποιήματα· ὅδε μὲν γὰρ οἶμαι διακορὴς αὐτῶν ἐστι.

ΜΕ.

πάνυ μὲν οὖν.

ΚΛ.

καὶ μὴν καὶ παρʼ ἡμᾶς ἐλήλυθε κομισθέντα ἐκ Λακεδαίμονος.

ΑΘ.

ἴθι νυν ἀνερώμεθα κοινῇ τουτονὶ τὸν ποιητὴν οὑτωσί πως· ὦ Τύρταιε, ποιητὰ θειότατε—δοκεῖς γὰρ δὴ 629c σοφὸς ἡμῖν εἶναι καὶ ἀγαθός, ὅτι τοὺς μὲν ἐν τῷ πολέμῳ διαφέροντας διαφερόντως ἐγκεκωμίακας—ἤδη οὖν τυγχάνομεν ἐγώ τε καὶ ὅδε καὶ Κλεινίας ὁ Κνώσιος οὑτοσὶ συμφερόμενοί σοι περὶ τούτου σφόδρα, ὡς δοκοῦμεν· εἰ δὲ περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν λέγομεν ἀνδρῶν ἢ μή, βουλόμεθα σαφῶς εἰδέναι. λέγε οὖν ἡμῖν· ἆρα εἴδη δύο πολέμου καθάπερ ἡμεῖς ἡγῇ καὶ σὺ σαφῶς; ἢ πῶς; πρὸς ταῦτʼ οἶμαι κἂν πολὺ φαυλότερος 629d εἴποι Τυρταίου τις τἀληθές, ὅτι δύο, τὸ μὲν ὃ καλοῦμεν ἅπαντες στάσιν, ὃς δὴ πάντων πολέμων χαλεπώτατος, ὡς ἔφαμεν ἡμεῖς νυνδή· τὸ δὲ ἄλλο πολέμου θήσομεν οἶμαι γένος ἅπαντες ᾧ πρὸς τοὺς ἐκτός τε καὶ ἀλλοφύλους χρώμεθα διαφερόμενοι, πολὺ πρᾳότερον ἐκείνου.

ΚΛ.

πῶς γὰρ οὔ;

ΑΘ.

φέρε δή, ποτέρους, καὶ πρὸς πότερον ἐπαινῶν τὸν πόλεμον, οὕτως ὑπερεπῄνεσας, τοὺς δὲ ἔψεξας τῶν ἀνδρῶν; ἔοικας μὲν γὰρ πρὸς τοὺς ἐκτός· εἴρηκας γοῦν ὧδε ἐν τοῖς 629e ποιήμασιν, ὡς οὐδαμῶς τοὺς τοιούτους ἀνεχόμενος, οἳ μὴ τολμήσωσιν μὲν

ὁρᾶν φόνον αἱματόεντα,

Tyrtaeus

καὶ δηίων ὀρέγοιντʼ ἐγγύθεν ἱστάμενοι.

Tyrtaeus οὐκοῦν τὰ μετὰ ταῦτα εἴποιμεν ἂν ἡμεῖς ὅτι σὺ μὲν ἐπαινεῖς, ὡς ἔοικας, ὦ Τύρταιε, μάλιστα τοὺς πρὸς τὸν ὀθνεῖόν τε καὶ ἔξωθεν πόλεμον γιγνομένους ἐπιφανεῖς. φαίη ταῦτʼ ἄν που καὶ ὁμολογοῖ;

[630]

ΚΛ.

τί μήν;

630a

ΑΘ.

ἡμεῖς δέ γε ἀγαθῶν ὄντων τούτων ἔτι φαμὲν ἀμείνους εἶναι καὶ πολὺ τοὺς ἐν τῷ μεγίστῳ πολέμῳ γιγνομένους ἀρίστους διαφανῶς· ποιητὴν δὲ καὶ ἡμεῖς μάρτυρʼ ἔχομεν, Θέογνιν, πολίτην τῶν ἐν Σικελίᾳ Μεγαρέων, ὅς φησιν—

πιστὸς ἀνὴρ χρυσοῦ τε καὶ ἀργύρου ἀντερύσασθαι

ἄξιος ἐν χαλεπῇ, Κύρνε, διχοστασίῃ.

Theognis 5.77-8 τοῦτον δή φαμεν ἐν πολέμῳ χαλεπωτέρῳ ἀμείνονα ἐκείνου πάμπολυ γίγνεσθαι, σχεδὸν ὅσον ἀμείνων δικαιοσύνη καὶ 630b σωφροσύνη καὶ φρόνησις εἰς ταὐτὸν ἐλθοῦσαι μετʼ ἀνδρείας, αὐτῆς μόνης ἀνδρείας. πιστὸς μὲν γὰρ καὶ ὑγιὴς ἐν στάσεσιν οὐκ ἄν ποτε γένοιτο ἄνευ συμπάσης ἀρετῆς· διαβάντες δʼ εὖ καὶ μαχόμενοι ἐθέλοντες ἀποθνῄσκειν ἐν ᾧ πολέμῳ φράζει Τύρταιος τῶν μισθοφόρων εἰσὶν πάμπολλοι, ὧν οἱ πλεῖστοι γίγνονται θρασεῖς καὶ ἄδικοι καὶ ὑβρισταὶ καὶ ἀφρονέστατοι σχεδὸν ἁπάντων, ἐκτὸς δή τινων εὖ μάλα ὀλίγων. ποῖ δὴ τελευτᾷ νῦν ἡμῖν οὗτος ὁ λόγος, καὶ τί 630c φανερόν ποτε ποιῆσαι βουληθεὶς λέγει ταῦτα; δῆλον ὅτι τόδε, ὡς παντὸς μᾶλλον καὶ ὁ τῇδε παρὰ Διὸς νομοθέτης, πᾶς τε οὗ καὶ σμικρὸν ὄφελος, οὐκ ἄλλο ἢ πρὸς τὴν μεγίστην ἀρετὴν μάλιστα βλέπων ἀεὶ θήσει τοὺς νόμους· ἔστι δέ, ὥς φησιν Θέογνις, αὕτη πιστότης ἐν τοῖς δεινοῖς, ἥν τις δικαιοσύνην ἂν τελέαν ὀνομάσειεν. ἣν δʼ αὖ Τύρταιος ἐπῄνεσεν μάλιστα, καλὴ μὲν καὶ κατὰ καιρὸν κεκοσμημένη τῷ ποιητῇ, τετάρτη μέντοι ὅμως ἀριθμῷ τε καὶ δυνάμει τοῦ 630d τιμία εἶναι λέγοιτʼ ἂν ὀρθότατα.

ναί.

ΑΘ.

καὶ τρίτον ἢ τέταρτον; ἴσως γὰρ ἂν οὕτω χρείη διαριθμήσασθαι καὶ περὶ τῶν τῆς ἄλλης ἀρετῆς εἴτε μερῶν εἴτε ἅττʼ αὐτὰ καλεῖν χρεών ἐστι, δηλοῦντα μόνον ἃ λέγει.

633b

ΜΕ.

τρίτον τοίνυν, ἔγωγʼ εἴποιμʼ ἂν καὶ Λακεδαιμονίων ὁστισοῦν, τὴν θήραν ηὗρε.

ΑΘ.

τέταρτον δέ, ἢ πέμπτον εἰ δυναίμεθα, λέγειν πειρώμεθα.

ΜΕ.

ἔτι τοίνυν καὶ τὸ τέταρτον ἔγωγε πειρῴμην ἂν λέγειν, τὸ περὶ τὰς καρτερήσεις τῶν ἀλγηδόνων πολὺ παρʼ ἡμῖν γιγνόμενον, ἔν τε ταῖς πρὸς ἀλλήλους ταῖς χερσὶ μάχαις καὶ ἐν ἁρπαγαῖς τισιν διὰ πολλῶν πληγῶν ἑκάστοτε γιγνομένων· ἔτι δὲ καὶ κρυπτεία τις ὀνομάζεται θαυμαστῶς πολύπονος 633c πρὸς τὰς καρτερήσεις, χειμώνων τε ἀνυποδησίαι καὶ ἀστρωσίαι καὶ ἄνευ θεραπόντων αὐτοῖς ἑαυτῶν διακονήσεις νύκτωρ τε πλανωμένων διὰ πάσης τῆς χώρας καὶ μεθʼ ἡμέραν. ἔτι δὲ κἀν ταῖς γυμνοπαιδίαις δειναὶ καρτερήσεις παρʼ ἡμῖν γίγνονται τῇ τοῦ πνίγους ῥώμῃ διαμαχομένων, καὶ πάμπολλα ἕτερα, σχεδὸν ὅσα οὐκ ἂν παύσαιτό τις ἑκάστοτε διεξιών.

ΑΘ.

εὖ γε, ὦ Λακεδαιμόνιε ξένε, λέγεις. τὴν ἀνδρείαν δέ, φέρε, τί θῶμεν; πότερον ἁπλῶς οὕτως εἶναι πρὸς φόβους 633d καὶ λύπας διαμάχην μόνον, ἢ καὶ πρὸς πόθους τε καὶ ἡδονὰς καί τινας δεινὰς θωπείας κολακικάς, αἳ καὶ τῶν σεμνῶν οἰομένων εἶναι τοὺς θυμοὺς ποιοῦσιν κηρίνους.

πρὸς ἀμφότερα ἔγωγε ἀξιῶ.

ΑΘ.

λέγωμεν τοίνυν πάλιν ἐπιτηδεύματα ποῖα ἔσθʼ ὑμῖν ἀμφοτέραις ταῖς πόλεσιν, ἃ γεύοντα τῶν ἡδονῶν καὶ οὐ φεύγοντα αὐτάς, καθάπερ τὰς λύπας οὐκ ἔφευγεν, ἀλλʼ ἄγοντα εἰς μέσας, ἠνάγκαζε καὶ ἔπειθεν τιμαῖς ὥστε κρατεῖν 634b αὐτῶν; ποῦ δὴ τοῦτʼ ἔστιν ταὐτὸν περὶ τὰς ἡδονὰς συντεταγμένον ἐν τοῖς νόμοις; λεγέσθω τί τοῦτʼ ἐστὶν ὃ καὶ ἀπεργάζεται ὑμῖν ὁμοίως πρός τε ἀλγηδόνας καὶ πρὸς ἡδονὰς τοὺς αὐτοὺς ἀνδρείους, νικῶντάς τε ἃ δεῖ νικᾶν καὶ οὐδαμῶς ἥττους πολεμίων τῶν ἐγγύτατα ἑαυτῶν καὶ χαλεπωτάτων.

ἔστι ταῦτα οὕτως, εἰς ἃ καὶ μηδέν γε ἀνῇς ἐπιτιμῶν τοῖς νόμοις ἡμῶν· οὐ γὰρ τό γε γνῶναί τι τῶν μὴ καλῶν ἄτιμον, ἀλλὰ ἴασιν ἐξ αὐτοῦ συμβαίνει γίγνεσθαι 635b τῷ μὴ φθόνῳ τὰ λεγόμενα ἀλλʼ εὐνοίᾳ δεχομένῳ.

ΑΘ.

καλῶς· οὐ μὴν ἐπιτιμῶν γε ἐρῶ τοῖς νόμοις πω, πρὶν βεβαίως εἰς δύναμιν διασκέψασθαι, μᾶλλον δὲ ἀπορῶν. ὑμῖν γὰρ ὁ νομοθέτης μόνοις Ἑλλήνων καὶ βαρβάρων, ὧν ἡμεῖς πυνθανόμεθα, τῶν μεγίστων ἡδονῶν καὶ παιδιῶν ἐπέταξεν ἀπέχεσθαι καὶ μὴ γεύεσθαι, τὸ δὲ τῶν λυπῶν καὶ φόβων, ὅπερ ἄρτι διεληλύθαμεν, ἡγήσατο εἴ τις ἐκ παίδων 635c φευξεῖται διὰ τέλους, ὁπόταν εἰς ἀναγκαίους ἔλθῃ πόνους καὶ φόβους καὶ λύπας, φευξεῖσθαι τοὺς ἐν ἐκείνοις γεγυμνασμένους καὶ δουλεύσειν αὐτοῖς. ταὐτὸν δὴ τοῦτʼ, οἶμαι, καὶ πρὸς τὰς ἡδονὰς ἔδει διανοεῖσθαι τὸν αὐτὸν νομοθέτην, λέγοντα αὐτὸν πρὸς ἑαυτὸν ὡς ἡμῖν ἐκ νέων εἰ ἄπειροι τῶν μεγίστων ἡδονῶν οἱ πολῖται γενήσονται, καὶ ἀμελέτητοι γιγνόμενοι ἐν ταῖς ἡδοναῖς καρτερεῖν καὶ μηδὲν τῶν αἰσχρῶν ἀναγκάζεσθαι ποιεῖν, ἕνεκα τῆς γλυκυθυμίας τῆς πρὸς τὰς 635d ἡδονὰς ταὐτὸν πείσονται τοῖς ἡττωμένοις τῶν φόβων· δουλεύσουσι τρόπον ἕτερον καὶ ἔτʼ αἰσχίω τοῖς γε δυναμένοις καρτερεῖν ἐν ταῖς ἡδοναῖς καὶ τοῖς κεκτημένοις τὰ περὶ τὰς ἡδονάς, ἀνθρώποις ἐνίοτε παντάπασι κακοῖς, καὶ τὴν ψυχὴν τῇ μὲν δούλην τῇ δὲ ἐλευθέραν ἕξουσιν, καὶ οὐκ ἄξιοι ἁπλῶς ἀνδρεῖοι καὶ ἐλευθέριοι ἔσονται προσαγορεύεσθαι. σκοπεῖτε οὖν εἴ τι τῶν νῦν λεγομένων ὑμῖν κατὰ τρόπον δοκεῖ λέγεσθαι.

635e

ΚΛ.

δοκεῖ μὲν ἡμῖν γέ πως λεγομένου τοῦ λόγου· περὶ δὲ τηλικούτων εὐθὺς πεπιστευκέναι ῥᾳδίως μὴ νέων τε ᾖ μᾶλλον καὶ ἀνοήτων.

[636]

ΑΘ.

τί δʼ ἐπαινέτην ἢ ψέκτην κοινωνίας ἡστινοσοῦν ᾗ πέφυκέν τε ἄρχων εἶναι μετʼ ἐκείνου τε ὠφέλιμός ἐστιν, ὁ δὲ μήτε ἑωρακὼς εἴη ποτʼ ὀρθῶς αὐτὴν αὑτῇ κοινωνοῦσαν μετʼ ἄρχοντος, ἀεὶ δὲ ἄναρχον ἢ μετὰ κακῶν ἀρχόντων συνοῦσαν; οἰόμεθα δή ποτε τοὺς τοιούτους θεωροὺς τῶν τοιούτων κοινωνιῶν χρηστόν τι ψέξειν ἢ ἐπαινέσεσθαι;

ΜΕ.

πῶς δʼ ἄν, μηδέποτέ γε ἰδόντας μηδὲ συγγενομένους 639d ὀρθῶς γενομένῳ μηδενὶ τῶν τοιούτων κοινωνημάτων;

ΑΘ.

ἔχε δή· τῶν πολλῶν κοινωνιῶν συμπότας καὶ συμπόσια θεῖμεν ἂν μίαν τινὰ συνουσίαν εἶναι;

ΜΕ.

καὶ σφόδρα γε.

ΑΘ.

ταύτην οὖν μῶν ὀρθῶς γιγνομένην ἤδη τις πώποτε ἐθεάσατο; καὶ σφῷν μὲν ἀποκρίνασθαι ῥᾴδιον ὡς οὐδεπώποτε τὸ παράπαν—οὐ γὰρ ἐπιχώριον ὑμῖν τοῦτο οὐδὲ νόμιμον—ἐγὼ δὲ ἐντετύχηκά τε πολλαῖς καὶ πολλαχοῦ, καὶ προσέτι πάσας ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν διηρώτηκα, καὶ σχεδὸν ὅλην 639e μὲν οὐδεμίαν ὀρθῶς γιγνομένην ἑώρακα οὐδὲ ἀκήκοα, μόρια δʼ εἴ που σμικρὰ καὶ ὀλίγα, τὰ πολλὰ δὲ σύμπανθʼ ὡς εἰπεῖν διημαρτημένα.

ὁ μὴν ἀνδρεῖος τῶν δειλῶν ὑπὸ φόβων ἧττον τεθορύβηται.

ΑΘ.

οὐκοῦν εἰ μὲν γιγνομένων ὡς δυνατὸν ὀρθότατα τούτων ἐν ταῖς πόλεσι τῶν συνουσιῶν μέμφοιτό τις, ἐπικαλῶν 640e αὐτῷ τῷ πράγματι, τάχʼ ἂν ὀρθῶς ἴσως μέμφοιτο· εἰ δὲ ἁμαρτανόμενον ὡς οἷόν τε μάλιστα ἐπιτήδευμά τις ὁρῶν λοιδορεῖ, πρῶτον μὲν δῆλον ὡς ἀγνοεῖ τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ γιγνόμενον οὐκ ὀρθῶς, εἶθʼ ὅτι πᾶν τούτῳ τῷ τρόπῳ φανεῖται πονηρόν, δεσπότου τε καὶ ἄρχοντος νήφοντος χωρὶς πραττόμενον.

ΑΘ.

σκοπῶ δὴ μὴ δόξαν ὑμῖν παράσχωμαι περὶ σμικροῦ πολλὰ λέγειν, μέθης πέρι, σμικροῦ πράγματος, παμμήκη λόγον ἀνακαθαιρόμενος. τὸ δὲ ἡ κατὰ φύσιν αὐτοῦ διόρθωσις οὐκ ἂν δύναιτο ἄνευ μουσικῆς ὀρθότητός ποτε σαφὲς οὐδὲ ἱκανὸν ἐν τοῖς λόγοις ἀπολαβεῖν, μουσικὴ δὲ ἄνευ παιδείας τῆς πάσης οὐκ ἂν αὖ ποτε δύναιτο· ταῦτα δὲ παμπόλλων ἐστὶν λόγων. ὁρᾶτε οὖν τί ποιῶμεν εἰ ταῦτα μὲν ἐάσαιμεν ἐν τῷ 642b παρόντι, μετεκβαῖμεν δʼ εἰς ἕτερόν τινα νόμων πέρι λόγον.

ΜΕ.

ὦ ξένε Ἀθηναῖε, οὐκ οἶσθʼ ἴσως ὅτι τυγχάνει ἡμῶν ἡ ἑστία τῆς πόλεως οὖσα ὑμῶν πρόξενος. ἴσως μὲν οὖν καὶ πᾶσιν τοῖς παισίν, ἐπειδὰν ἀκούσωσιν ὅτι τινός εἰσιν πόλεως πρόξενοι, ταύτῃ τις εὔνοια ἐκ νέων εὐθὺς ἐνδύεται ἕκαστον ἡμῶν τῶν προξένων τῇ πόλει, ὡς δευτέρᾳ οὔσῃ πατρίδι μετὰ τὴν αὑτοῦ πόλιν· καὶ δὴ καὶ ἐμοὶ νῦν ταὐτὸν τοῦτο ἐγγέγονεν. ἀκούων γὰρ τῶν παίδων εὐθύς, 642c εἴ τι μέμφοιντο ἢ καὶ ἐπαινοῖεν Λακεδαιμόνιοι Ἀθηναίους, ὡς ἡ πόλις ὑμῶν, ὦ Μέγιλλε, ἔφασαν, ἡμᾶς οὐ καλῶς ἢ καλῶς ἔρρεξε —ταῦτα δὴ ἀκούων, καὶ μαχόμενος πρὸς αὐτὰ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν ἀεὶ πρὸς τοὺς τὴν πόλιν εἰς ψόγον ἄγοντας, πᾶσαν εὔνοιαν ἔσχον, καί μοι νῦν ἥ τε φωνὴ προσφιλὴς ὑμῶν, τό τε ὑπὸ πολλῶν λεγόμενον, ὡς ὅσοι Ἀθηναίων εἰσὶν ἀγαθοὶ διαφερόντως εἰσὶν τοιοῦτοι, δοκεῖ ἀληθέστατα λέγεσθαι· μόνοι γὰρ ἄνευ ἀνάγκης αὐτοφυῶς, θείᾳ μοίρᾳ 642d ἀληθῶς καὶ οὔτι πλαστῶς εἰσιν ἀγαθοί. θαρρῶν δὴ ἐμοῦ γε ἕνεκα λέγοις ἂν τοσαῦτα ὁπόσα σοι φίλον.

ΚΛ.

καὶ μήν, ὦ ξένε, καὶ τὸν παρʼ ἐμοῦ λόγον ἀκούσας τε καὶ ἀποδεξάμενος, θαρρῶν ὁπόσα βούλει λέγε. τῇδε γὰρ ἴσως ἀκήκοας ὡς Ἐπιμενίδης γέγονεν ἀνὴρ θεῖος, ὃς ἦν ἡμῖν οἰκεῖος, ἐλθὼν δὲ πρὸ τῶν Περσικῶν δέκα ἔτεσιν πρότερον παρʼ ὑμᾶς κατὰ τὴν τοῦ θεοῦ μαντείαν, θυσίας τε ἐθύσατό 642e τινας ἃς ὁ θεὸς ἀνεῖλεν, καὶ δὴ καὶ φοβουμένων τὸν Περσικὸν Ἀθηναίων στόλον, εἶπεν ὅτι δέκα μὲν ἐτῶν οὐχ ἥξουσιν, ὅταν δὲ ἔλθωσιν, ἀπαλλαγήσονται πράξαντες οὐδὲν ὧν ἤλπιζον, παθόντες τε ἢ δράσαντες πλείω κακά.

[643]

ΚΛ.

τότʼ οὖν ἐξενώθησαν ὑμῖν οἱ πρόγονοι ἡμῶν, καὶ εὔνοιαν ἐκ τόσου ἔγωγε ὑμῖν καὶ 643a οἱ ἡμέτεροι ἔχουσιν γονῆς.

ΑΘ.

τὰ μὲν τοίνυν ὑμέτερα ἀκούειν, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἕτοιμʼ ἂν εἴη· τὰ δʼ ἐμὰ βούλεσθαι μὲν ἕτοιμα, δύνασθαι δὲ οὐ πάνυ ῥᾴδια, ὅμως δὲ πειρατέον. πρῶτον δὴ οὖν πρὸς τὸν λόγον ὁρισώμεθα παιδείαν τί ποτʼ ἐστὶν καὶ τίνα δύναμιν ἔχει· διὰ γὰρ ταύτης φαμὲν ἰτέον εἶναι τὸν προκεχειρισμένον ἐν τῷ νῦν λόγον ὑφʼ ἡμῶν, μέχριπερ ἂν πρὸς τὸν θεὸν ἀφίκηται.

ΚΛ.

πάνυ μὲν οὖν δρῶμεν ταῦτα, εἴπερ σοί γε ἡδύ.

[645]

ΑΘ.

μιᾷ γάρ φησιν ὁ λόγος δεῖν τῶν ἕλξεων συνεπόμενον ἀεὶ καὶ μηδαμῇ ἀπολειπόμενον ἐκείνης, ἀνθέλκειν τοῖς ἄλλοις νεύροις ἕκαστον, ταύτην 645a δʼ εἶναι τὴν τοῦ λογισμοῦ ἀγωγὴν χρυσῆν καὶ ἱεράν, τῆς πόλεως κοινὸν νόμον ἐπικαλουμένην, ἄλλας δὲ σκληρὰς καὶ σιδηρᾶς, τὴν δὲ μαλακὴν ἅτε χρυσῆν οὖσαν, τὰς δὲ ἄλλας παντοδαποῖς εἴδεσιν ὁμοίας. δεῖν δὴ τῇ καλλίστῃ ἀγωγῇ τῇ τοῦ νόμου ἀεὶ συλλαμβάνειν· ἅτε γὰρ τοῦ λογισμοῦ καλοῦ μὲν ὄντος, πρᾴου δὲ καὶ οὐ βιαίου, δεῖσθαι ὑπηρετῶν αὐτοῦ τὴν ἀγωγήν, ὅπως ἂν ἐν ἡμῖν τὸ χρυσοῦν γένος νικᾷ τὰ ἄλλα 645b γένη. καὶ οὕτω δὴ περὶ θαυμάτων ὡς ὄντων ἡμῶν ὁ μῦθος ἀρετῆς σεσωμένος ἂν εἴη, καὶ τὸ κρείττω ἑαυτοῦ καὶ ἥττω εἶναι τρόπον τινὰ φανερὸν ἂν γίγνοιτο μᾶλλον ὃ νοεῖ, καὶ ὅτι πόλιν καὶ ἰδιώτην, τὸν μὲν λόγον ἀληθῆ λαβόντα ἐν ἑαυτῷ περὶ τῶν ἕλξεων τούτων, τούτῳ ἑπόμενον δεῖ ζῆν, πόλιν δὲ ἢ παρὰ θεῶν τινος ἢ παρὰ τούτου τοῦ γνόντος ταῦτα λόγον παραλαβοῦσαν, νόμον θεμένην, αὑτῇ τε ὁμιλεῖν καὶ ταῖς ἄλλαις πόλεσιν. οὕτω καὶ κακία δὴ καὶ ἀρετὴ 645c σαφέστερον ἡμῖν διηρθρωμένον ἂν εἴη· ἐναργεστέρου δʼ αὐτοῦ γενομένου καὶ παιδεία καὶ τἆλλα ἐπιτηδεύματα ἴσως ἔσται μᾶλλον καταφανῆ, καὶ δὴ καὶ τὸ περὶ τῆς ἐν τοῖς οἴνοις διατριβῆς, ὃ δοξασθείη μὲν ἂν εἶναι φαύλου πέρι μῆκος πολὺ λόγων περιττὸν εἰρημένον, φανείη δὲ τάχʼ ἂν ἴσως τοῦ μήκους γʼ αὐτῶν οὐκ ἀπάξιον.

ΚΛ.

εὖ λέγεις, καὶ περαίνωμεν ὅτιπερ ἂν τῆς γε νῦν διατριβῆς ἄξιον γίγνηται.

645d

ΑΘ.

λέγε δή· προσφέροντες τῷ θαύματι τούτῳ τὴν μέθην, ποῖόν τί ποτε αὐτὸ ἀπεργαζόμεθα;

ΚΛ.

πρὸς τί δὲ σκοπούμενος αὐτὸ ἐπανερωτᾷς;

ΑΘ.

οὐδέν πω πρὸς ὅτι, τοῦτο δὲ ὅλως κοινωνῆσαν τούτῳ ποῖόν τι συμπίπτει γίγνεσθαι. ἔτι δὲ σαφέστερον ὃ βούλομαι πειράσομαι φράζειν. ἐρωτῶ γὰρ τὸ τοιόνδε· ἆρα σφοδροτέρας τὰς ἡδονὰς καὶ λύπας καὶ θυμοὺς καὶ ἔρωτας ἡ τῶν οἴνων πόσις ἐπιτείνει;

ΚΛ.

πολύ γε.

ΚΛ.

ἔοικʼ εἶναι· σὺ γοῦν φῂς καὶ ἕτοιμος ἦσθα νυνδὴ λέγειν.

647e

ΑΘ.

τί οὖν;

ΚΛ.

ναί· σωφρονοῖ γὰρ ἄν, ὦ ξένε, καὶ ὁ τοιοῦτος οὕτω πράττων.

ΑΘ.

σκοπῶμεν γὰρ δή· δυσκόλου ψυχῆς καὶ ἀγρίας, ἐξ ἧς ἀδικίαι μυρίαι γίγνονται, πότερον ἰόντα εἰς τὰ συμβόλαια πεῖραν λαμβάνειν, κινδυνεύοντα περὶ 650a αὐτῶν, σφαλερώτερον, ἢ συγγενόμενον μετὰ τῆς τοῦ Διονύσου θεωρίας; ἢ πρὸς τἀφροδίσια ἡττημένης τινὸς ψυχῆς βάσανον λαμβάνειν, ἐπιτρέποντα αὑτοῦ θυγατέρας τε καὶ ὑεῖς καὶ γυναῖκας, οὕτως, ἐν τοῖς φιλτάτοις κινδυνεύσαντες, ἦθος ψυχῆς θεάσασθαι; καὶ μυρία δὴ λέγων οὐκ ἄν τίς ποτε ἀνύσειεν ὅσῳ διαφέρει τὸ μετὰ παιδιᾶς τὴν ἄλλως ἄνευ μισθοῦ ζημιώδους θεωρεῖν. καὶ δὴ καὶ τοῦτο μὲν αὐτὸ περί 650b γε τούτων οὔτʼ ἂν Κρῆτας οὔτʼ ἄλλους ἀνθρώπους οὐδένας οἰόμεθα ἀμφισβητῆσαι, μὴ οὐ πεῖράν τε ἀλλήλων ἐπιεικῆ ταύτην εἶναι, τό τε τῆς εὐτελείας καὶ ἀσφαλείας καὶ τάχους διαφέρειν πρὸς τὰς ἄλλας βασάνους.

ΚΛ.

ἀληθὲς τοῦτό γε.

ΑΘ.

τοῦτο μὲν ἄρʼ ἂν τῶν χρησιμωτάτων ἓν εἴη, τὸ γνῶναι τὰς φύσεις τε καὶ ἕξεις τῶν ψυχῶν, τῇ τέχνῃ ἐκείνῃ ἧς ἐστιν ταῦτα θεραπεύειν· ἔστιν δέ που, φαμέν, ὡς οἶμαι, πολιτικῆς. ἦ γάρ;

ΚΛ.

πάνυ μὲν οὖν.

Laws. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1915.

Sponsored by Perseus Project, Tufts University.

Funding provided by The Annenberg CPB/Project.

Current edition Perseus

Νόμοι (Greek) (Platonis Opera, Tomus V: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1914.)

Translations (1)

Laws Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 10-11. Bury, R. G., translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1926 (printing).) — 1 focus

[624] 624a

Ath.

To whom do you ascribe the authorship of your legal arrangements, Strangers? To a god or to some man?

Clin.

To a god, Stranger, most rightfully to a god. We Cretans call Zeus our lawgiver; while in Lacedaemon , where our friend here has his home, I believe they claim Apollo as theirs. Is not that so, Megillus?

Meg.

Yes.

Ath.

Do you then, like Homer,¹ say that 624b Minos used to go every ninth year to hold converse with his father Zeus, and that he was guided by his divine oracles in laying down the laws for your cities?

This statement, Stranger, is apparently true; yet, unless I am much mistaken, our legal usages in Crete , and in Lacedaemon too, are wholly acted towards war.

[629]

Ath.

Very possibly; but we must not now attack them violently, 629a but mildly interrogate them, since both we and your legislators are earnestly interested in these matters. Pray follow the argument closely. Let us take the opinion of Tyrtaeus (an Athenian by birth and afterwards a citizen of Lacedaemon ), above all men, was keenly interested in our subject. This is what he says:⁴

Though a man were the richest of men,

Tyrtaeus 12 Bergk 629b

though a man possessed goods in plenty (and he specifies nearly every good there is), if he failed to prove himself at all times most valiant in war, no mention should I make of nor take account of him at all.

No doubt you also have heard these poems; while our friend Megillus is, I imagine, surfeited with them.

Meg.

I certainly am.

Clin.

And I can assure you they have reached Crete also, shipped over from Lacedaemon .

Ath.

Come now, let us jointly interrogate this poet somehow on this wise: 629c O Tyrtaeus, most inspired of poets (for assuredly you seem to us both wise and good in that you have eulogized excellently those who excel in war), concerning this matter we three Megillus, Clinias of Cnosus and myself are already in entire accord with you, as we suppose; but we wish to be assured that both we and you are alluding to the same persons. Tell us then: do you clearly recognize, as we do, two distinct kinds of war? In reply to this I suppose that even a much less able man than Tyrtaeus would state the truth, 629d that there are two kinds, the one being that which we all call civil, which is of all wars the most bitter, as we said just now, while the other kind, as I suppose we shall all agree, is that which we engage in when we quarrel with foreigners and aliens—a kind much milder than the former.

Clin.

Certainly.

Ath.

Come, then, which kind of warriors, fighting in which kind of war, did you praise so highly, while blaming others? Warriors, apparently, who fight in war abroad. 629e At any rate, in your poems you have said that you cannot abide men who dare not

face the gory fray

Tyrtaeus

and smite the foe in close combat.

Tyrtaeus Then we should proceed to say, It appears, O Tyrtaeus, that you are chiefly praising those who achieve distinction in foreign and external warfare. To this, I presume, he would agree, and say Yes?

[630] 630a

Clin.

Of course.

Ath.

Yet, brave though these men are, we still maintain that they are far surpassed in bravery by those who are conspicuously brave in the greatest of wars; and we also have a poet for witness,—Theognis (a citizen of Sicilian Megara), who says:

In the day of grievous feud, O Cyrnus, the loyal warrior is worth his weight in silver and gold.

Theognis 5.77-8 Bergk ⁵ Such a man, in a war much more grievous, is, we say, ever so much better than the other—nearly as much better, in fact, as the union of justice, prudence and wisdom 630b with courage is better than courage by itself alone. For a man would never prove himself a loyal and sound in civil war if devoid of goodness in its entirety; whereas in the war of which Tyrtaeus speaks there are vast numbers of mercenaries ready to die fighting⁶

with well-planted feet apart,

of whom the majority, with but few exceptions, prove themselves reckless, unjust, violent, and pre-eminently foolish. What, then, is the conclusion to which our present discourse is tending, and what point is it trying to make clear by these statements? Plainly it is this: both the Heaven-taught legislator of Crete 630c and every legislator who is worth his salt will most assuredly legislate always with a single eye to the highest goodness and to that alone; and this (to quote Theognis) consists in

loyalty in danger,

and one might term it complete righteousness. But that goodness which Tyrtaeus specially praised, 630d fair though it be and fitly glorified by the poet, deserves nevertheless to be placed no higher than fourth in order and estimation.⁷

Ath.

At present do we apply the term bad to the man who is inferior to pains, or to him also who is inferior to pleasures?

Clin.

To the man who is inferior to pleasures more than to the other, in my opinion. All of us, indeed, when we speak of a man who is shamefully self-inferior, mean one who is mastered by pleasures rather than one who is mastered by pains.

[634] 634a

Say not so, my dear Sir; for there have been, in fact, in the past and there will be in the future many a flight and many a pursuit which are past explaining, so that victory or defeat in battle could never be called a decisive, but rather a questionable, test of the goodness or badness of an institution. Larger States, for example, are victorious in battle over smaller States, 638b and we find the Syracusans subjugating the Locrians, who are reputed to have been the best-governed of the peoples in that part of the world: and the Athenians the Ceians,—and we could find countless other instances of the same kind. So let us leave victories and defeats out of account for the present, and discuss each several institution on its own merits in the endeavor to convince ourselves, and explain in what way one kind is good and another had. And to begin with, listen to my account of the right method of inquiring into the merits and demerits of institutions. 638c

Meg.

What is your account of it?

Ath.

Suppose, then, that a man were to find fault with such institutions in States where they are managed in the best possible way, 640e having an objection to the institution in itself, he might perhaps be right in doing so but if a man abuses an institution when he sees it managed in the worst way possible, it is plain that he is ignorant, first, of the fact that it is badly conducted, and secondly, that every institution will appear similarly bad when it is carried on without a sober ruler and commander.

Ath.

so I am afraid of making you think that I am a great talker about a small matter, if I spin out a discourse of prodigious length about the small matter of drunkenness. But the fact is that the right ordering of this could never be treated adequately and clearly in our discourse apart from rightness in music, nor could music, apart from education as a whole; and these require lengthy discussions. Consider, then, what we are to do: suppose we leave these matters over for the present, 642b and take up some other legal topic instead.

Meg.

O Stranger of Athens , you are not, perhaps, aware that our family is, in fact, a proxenus¹⁴ of your State. It is probably true of all children that, when once they have been told that they are proxeni of a certain State, they conceive an affection for that State even from infancy, and each of them regards it as a second mother-land, next after his own country. That is precisely the feeling I now experience. For through hearing mere children crying out— 642c whenever they, being the Lacedaemonians, were blaming the Athenians for anything or praising them— Your State, Megillus, has done us a bad turn or a good one,—through hearing such remarks, I say, and constantly fighting your battles against those who were thus decrying your State, I acquired a deep affection for it; so that now not only do I delight in your accent, but I regard as absolutely true the common saying that good Athenians are always incomparably good, for they alone are good 642d not by outward compulsion but by inner disposition. Thus, so far as I am concerned, you may speak without fear and say all you please.

Clin.

My story, too, Stranger, when you hear it, will show you that you may boldly say all you wish. You have probably heard how that inspired man Epimenides, who was a family connection of ours, was born in Crete ; and how ten years¹⁵ before the Persian War, in obedience to the oracle of the god, he went to Athens and offered certain sacrifices which the god had ordained; and how, moreover, when the Athenians were alarmed at the Persians’ expeditionary force, 642e he made this prophecy— They will not come for ten years, and when they do come, they will return back again with all their hopes frustrated, and after suffering more woes than they inflict.

Ath.

Well then:

[650]

Ath.

For consider: in the case of a man whose disposition is morose and savage (whence spring numberless iniquities), is it not more dangerous to test him by entering into money transactions with him, at one’s own personal risk, than by associating with him with the help of Dionysus and his festive insight? 650a And when a man is a slave to the pleasures of sex, is it not a more dangerous test to entrust to him one’s own daughters and sons and wife, and thus imperil one’s own nearest and dearest, in order to discover the disposition of his soul? In fact, one might quote innumerable instances in a vain endeavor to show the full superiority of this playful method of inspection which is without either serious consequence or costly damage. Indeed, so far as that is concerned, neither the Cretans, 650b I imagine, nor any other people would dispute the fact that herein we have a fair test of man by man, and that for cheapness, security and speed it is superior to all other tests.

Clin.

That certainly is true.

Ath.

This then—the discovery of the natures and conditions of men’s souls—will prove one of the things most useful to that art whose task it is to treat them; and that art is (as I presume we say) the art of politics: is it not so?

Clin.

Undoubtedly.