Plato, Republic, ed. John Burnet, 7.538

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[538]
οἷον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, εἴ τις ὑποβολιμαῖος τραφείη ἐν πολλοῖς 538a μὲν χρήμασι, πολλῷ δὲ καὶ μεγάλῳ γένει καὶ κόλαξι πολλοῖς, ἀνὴρ δὲ γενόμενος αἴσθοιτο ὅτι οὐ τούτων ἐστὶ τῶν φασκόντων γονέων, τοὺς δὲ τῷ ὄντι γεννήσαντας μὴ εὕροι, τοῦτον ἔχεις μαντεύσασθαι πῶς ἂν διατεθείη πρός τε τοὺς κόλακας καὶ πρὸς τοὺς ὑποβαλομένους ἐν ἐκείνῳ τε τῷ χρόνῳ ᾧ οὐκ ᾔδει τὰ περὶ τῆς ὑποβολῆς, καὶ ἐν ᾧ αὖ ᾔδει; ἢ βούλει ἐμοῦ μαντευομένου ἀκοῦσαι;
βούλομαι, ἔφη.
μαντεύομαι τοίνυν, εἶπον, μᾶλλον αὐτὸν τιμᾶν ἂν τὸν 538b πατέρα καὶ τὴν μητέρα καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους οἰκείους δοκοῦντας ἢ τοὺς κολακεύοντας, καὶ ἧττον μὲν ἂν περιιδεῖν ἐνδεεῖς τινος, ἧττον δὲ παράνομόν τι δρᾶσαι ἢ εἰπεῖν εἰς αὐτούς, ἧττον δὲ ἀπειθεῖν τὰ μεγάλα ἐκείνοις ἢ τοῖς κόλαξιν, ἐν ᾧ χρόνῳ τὸ ἀληθὲς μὴ εἰδείη.
εἰκός, ἔφη.
αἰσθόμενον τοίνυν τὸ ὂν μαντεύομαι αὖ περὶ μὲν τούτους ἀνεῖναι ἂν τὸ τιμᾶν τε καὶ σπουδάζειν, περὶ δὲ τοὺς κόλακας ἐπιτεῖναι, καὶ πείθεσθαί τε αὐτοῖς διαφερόντως ἢ πρότερον 538c καὶ ζῆν ἂν ἤδη κατʼ ἐκείνους, συνόντα αὐτοῖς ἀπαρακαλύπτως, πατρὸς δὲ ἐκείνου καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ποιουμένων οἰκείων, εἰ μὴ πάνυ εἴη φύσει ἐπιεικής, μέλειν τὸ μηδέν.
πάντʼ, ἔφη, λέγεις οἷά περ ἂν γένοιτο. ἀλλὰ πῇ πρὸς τοὺς ἁπτομένους τῶν λόγων αὕτη φέρει ἡ εἰκών;
τῇδε. ἔστι που ἡμῖν δόγματα ἐκ παίδων περὶ δικαίων καὶ καλῶν, ἐν οἷς ἐκτεθράμμεθα ὥσπερ ὑπὸ γονεῦσι, πειθαρχοῦντές τε καὶ τιμῶντες αὐτά.
ἔστι γάρ. 538d
οὐκοῦν καὶ ἄλλα ἐναντία τούτων ἐπιτηδεύματα ἡδονὰς ἔχοντα, ἃ κολακεύει μὲν ἡμῶν τὴν ψυχὴν καὶ ἕλκει ἐφʼ αὑτά, πείθει δʼ οὒ τοὺς καὶ ὁπῃοῦν μετρίους· ἀλλʼ ἐκεῖνα τιμῶσι τὰ πάτρια καὶ ἐκείνοις πειθαρχοῦσιν.
ἔστι ταῦτα.
τί οὖν; ἦν δʼ ἐγώ· ὅταν τὸν οὕτως ἔχοντα ἐλθὸν ἐρώτημα ἔρηται· τί ἐστι τὸ καλόν, καὶ ἀποκριναμένου ὃ τοῦ νομοθέτου ἤκουεν ἐξελέγχῃ ὁ λόγος, καὶ πολλάκις καὶ πολλαχῇ ἐλέγχων εἰς δόξαν καταβάλῃ ὡς τοῦτο οὐδὲν μᾶλλον 538e καλὸν ἢ αἰσχρόν, καὶ περὶ δικαίου ὡσαύτως καὶ ἀγαθοῦ καὶ ἃ μάλιστα ἦγεν ἐν τιμῇ, μετὰ τοῦτο τί οἴει ποιήσειν αὐτὸν πρὸς αὐτὰ τιμῆς τε πέρι καὶ πειθαρχίας;
ἀνάγκη, ἔφη, μήτε τιμᾶν ἔτι ὁμοίως μήτε πείθεσθαι.

Republic. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1905.

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Πολιτεία (Greek) (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.)

Translations (1)

Republic Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).) — 7.538 focus

[538] “Their case,” said I, “resembles that of a supposititious son reared in abundant wealth and a great and numerous family 538a amid many flatterers, who on arriving at manhood should become aware that he is not the child of those who call themselves his parents, and should I not be able to find his true father and mother. Can you divine what would be his feelings towards the flatterers and his supposed parents in the time when he did not know the truth about his adoption, and, again, when he knew it? Or would you like to hear my surmise?” “I would.”
“Well, then, my surmise is,” I said, “that he would be more likely to honor 538b his reputed father and mother and other kin than the flatterers, and that there would be less likelihood of his allowing them to lack for anything, and that he would be less inclined to do or say to them anything unlawful, and less liable to disobey them in great matters than to disobey the flatterers—during the time when he did not know the truth.” “It is probable,” he said. “But when he found out the truth, I surmise that he would grow more remiss in honor and devotion to them and pay more regard to the flatterers, whom he would heed 538c more than before¹ and would henceforth live by their rule, associating with them openly, while for that former father and his adoptive kin he would not care at all, unless he was naturally of a very good disposition.” “All that you say,” he replied, “would be likely to happen.² But what is the pertinency of this comparison to the novices of dialectic³?” “It is this. We have, I take it, certain convictions⁴ from childhood about the just and the honorable, in which, in obedience and honor to them, we have been bred as children under their parents.” 538d “Yes, we have.” “And are there not other practices going counter to these, that have pleasures attached to them and that flatter and solicit our souls, but do not win over men of any decency; but they continue to hold in honor the teachings of their fathers and obey them?” “It is so” “Well, then,” said I, “when a man of this kind is met by the question,⁵ What is the honorable? and on his giving the answer which he learned from the lawgiver, the argument confutes him, and by many and various refutations upsets⁶ his faith 538e and makes him believe that this thing is no more honorable than it is base,⁷ and when he has had the same experience about the just and the good and everything that he chiefly held in esteem, how do you suppose that he will conduct himself thereafter in the matter of respect and obedience to this traditional morality?” “It is inevitable,” he said, “that he will not continue to honor and obey as before.”

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

τῶν φασκόντων γονέων : ‘his self-styled parents.’ For the omission of εἶναι see Schanz Nov. Comm. Pl. p. 34. γονέων <εἶναι>, which Herwerden proposes, is weaker and less emphatic.

ὑποβαλομένους is the reading of A and Cesenas M; whereas all, or nearly all, the other MSS have ὑποβαλλομένους. “Ac nescio an qui suppositum sibi aliquando filium pro suo habere et venditare pergunt, ὑποβαλλόμενοι dici potuerint” (Schneider, comparing καθιστάντες in III 410 B). This is true, and the present may be right, especially as in V 469 E, A has βαλόντος (wrongly, as I think) for the βάλλοντος of all the other MSS. But M may here perhaps be allowed to turn the scale.

ἤδει . εἰδείη (suggested by Richards) would be more regular (as in B below), but cf. δύναται 515 E note

εἰς αὐτούς . εἰς (which Herwerden brackets) is used as in ὑβρίζειν εἰς.

αἰσθόμενος . αἰσθόμενον, which is read by Hermann and others, has no MS authority except a variant, perhaps an early variant, in A, and apparently also M. The anacoluthon will of course be scouted by many scholars; but although it is ungrammatical, no doubt, it is scarcely harsher than many anacolutha in Plato; see Schneider on IV 430 E and Engelhardt Anac. Pl. Spec. III p. 40, where numerous examples of the nominativus pendens are given. Plato begins as if he were going to write δοκεῖ μοι instead of μαντεύομαι: compare Ap. 21 C διασκοπῶν οὖν τοῦτον—καὶ διαλεγόμενος αὐτῷ, ἔδοξέ μοι κτλ., where ἔδοξέ μοι is substituted for ἔγνων or the like. Here the nominative seems to me to emphasize the contrast with ἐν ᾦ χρόνῳ—εἰδείη better than the accusative could have done; but in any case it is safer to retain than to expunge such echoes of conversational style in Plato wherever the weight of MS evidence is in their favour. For this reason I now, with Schneider and others, revert to αἰσθόμενος.

πατρὸς δὲ ἐκείνου κτλ. : ‘his former father’ etc. i.e. the reputed father of his earlier days. ποιουμένων ‘reputed’ (J. and C.), lit. ‘made out to be,’ is scarcely different from δοκούντων ( τοὺς ἄλλους οἰκείους δοκοῦντας in B). Cobet conjectures προσποιουμένων, but the text is sound: cf. VI 498 A note

ἔστι που κτλ. Plato, as Bosanquet points out ( Companion p. 305), seems to think it possible enough that the higher education will lead his rulers to criticise the δόγματα of the earlier ‘musical’ training. “But if this criticism is only the negative side of the deepening grasp with which a mature and stedfast mind lays hold on reality, no harm, he urges, will be done” (Bosanquet l.c.). We may even go farther and say that Dialectic and its ancillary studies are expressly intended to place the Guardians in the same position as the original legislator (VI 497 D) and enable them within limits to modify and reconstruct the authoritative δόγματα of the city (VI 500 E ff.).

ἐλθὸν ἐρώτημα . See IV 434 D note

ἀποκριναμένου . The genitive is defended by Schneider from IX 590 D. ἀποκρινάμενον ( Ξ and two other MSS) is obviously a ‘correction.’

καὶ πολλάκις κτλ. The whole of this passage should be compared with the account of the genesis of μισολογία in Phaed. 90 B ff.

μήτε ‐‐ τε . See on IV 430 B.

Plato Republic 7.538

ed. John Burnet

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