Plato, Republic, ed. John Burnet, 7.530

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[530] ἡγήσαιτο γὰρ ἄν πού τις ἔμπειρος γεωμετρίας, ἰδὼν τὰ τοιαῦτα, κάλλιστα μὲν ἔχειν ἀπεργασίᾳ, γελοῖον μὴν ἐπισκοπεῖν αὐτὰ σπουδῇ ὡς τὴν ἀλήθειαν ἐν αὐτοῖς ληψόμενον 530a ἴσων ἢ διπλασίων ἢ ἄλλης τινὸς συμμετρίας.
τί δʼ οὐ μέλλει γελοῖον εἶναι; ἔφη.
τῷ ὄντι δὴ ἀστρονομικόν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὄντα οὐκ οἴει ταὐτὸν πείσεσθαι εἰς τὰς τῶν ἄστρων φορὰς ἀποβλέποντα; νομιεῖν μὲν ὡς οἷόν τε κάλλιστα τὰ τοιαῦτα ἔργα συστήσασθαι, οὕτω συνεστάναι τῷ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ δημιουργῷ αὐτόν τε καὶ τὰ ἐν αὐτῷ· τὴν δὲ νυκτὸς πρὸς ἡμέραν συμμετρίαν καὶ τούτων πρὸς μῆνα καὶ μηνὸς πρὸς ἐνιαυτὸν καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἄστρων 530b πρός τε ταῦτα καὶ πρὸς ἄλληλα, οὐκ ἄτοπον, οἴει, ἡγήσεται τὸν νομίζοντα γίγνεσθαί τε ταῦτα ἀεὶ ὡσαύτως καὶ οὐδαμῇ οὐδὲν παραλλάττειν, σῶμά τε ἔχοντα καὶ ὁρώμενα, καὶ ζητεῖν παντὶ τρόπῳ τὴν ἀλήθειαν αὐτῶν λαβεῖν;
ἐμοὶ γοῦν δοκεῖ, ἔφη, σοῦ νῦν ἀκούοντι.
προβλήμασιν ἄρα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, χρώμενοι ὥσπερ γεωμετρίαν οὕτω καὶ ἀστρονομίαν μέτιμεν, τὰ δʼ ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ ἐάσομεν, εἰ μέλλομεν ὄντως ἀστρονομίας μεταλαμβάνοντες χρήσιμον 530c τὸ φύσει φρόνιμον ἐν τῇ ψυχῇ ἐξ ἀχρήστου ποιήσειν.
ἦ πολλαπλάσιον, ἔφη, τὸ ἔργον ἢ ὡς νῦν ἀστρονομεῖται προστάττεις.
οἶμαι δέ γε, εἶπον, καὶ τἆλλα κατὰ τὸν αὐτὸν τρόπον προστάξειν ἡμᾶς, ἐάν τι ἡμῶν ὡς νομοθετῶν ὄφελος ᾖ. ἀλλὰ γάρ τι ἔχεις ὑπομνῆσαι τῶν προσηκόντων μαθημάτων;
οὐκ ἔχω, ἔφη, νῦν γʼ οὑτωσί.
οὐ μὴν ἕν, ἀλλὰ πλείω, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, εἴδη παρέχεται ἡ φορά, 530d ὡς ἐγᾦμαι. τὰ μὲν οὖν πάντα ἴσως ὅστις σοφὸς ἕξει εἰπεῖν· ἃ δὲ καὶ ἡμῖν προφανῆ, δύο.
ποῖα δή;
πρὸς τούτῳ, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἀντίστροφον αὐτοῦ.
τὸ ποῖον;
κινδυνεύει, ἔφην, ὡς πρὸς ἀστρονομίαν ὄμματα πέπηγεν, ὣς πρὸς ἐναρμόνιον φορὰν ὦτα παγῆναι, καὶ αὗται ἀλλήλων ἀδελφαί τινες αἱ ἐπιστῆμαι εἶναι, ὡς οἵ τε Πυθαγόρειοί φασι καὶ ἡμεῖς, ὦ Γλαύκων, συγχωροῦμεν. ἢ πῶς ποιοῦμεν;
οὕτως, ἔφη. 530e
οὐκοῦν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐπειδὴ πολὺ τὸ ἔργον, ἐκείνων πευσόμεθα πῶς λέγουσι περὶ αὐτῶν καὶ εἴ τι ἄλλο πρὸς τούτοις· ἡμεῖς δὲ παρὰ πάντα ταῦτα φυλάξομεν τὸ ἡμέτερον.
ποῖον;
μή ποτʼ αὐτῶν τι ἀτελὲς ἐπιχειρῶσιν ἡμῖν μανθάνειν οὓς θρέψομεν, καὶ οὐκ ἐξῆκον ἐκεῖσε ἀεί, οἷ πάντα δεῖ ἀφήκειν, οἷον ἄρτι περὶ τῆς ἀστρονομίας ἐλέγομεν.

Republic. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1905.

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Πολιτεία (Greek) (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.)

Translations (1)

Republic Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).) — 7.530 focus

[530] For anyone acquainted with geometry who saw such designs would admit the beauty of the workmanship, but would think it absurd to examine them seriously in the expectation of finding in them the absolute truth 530a with regard to equals or doubles or any other ratio.” “How could it be otherwise than absurd?” he said. “Do you not think,” said I, “that one who was an astronomer in very truth would feel in the same way when he turned his eyes upon the movements of the stars? He will be willing to concede that the artisan¹ of heaven fashioned it and all that it contains in the best possible manner for such a fabric; but when it comes to the proportions of day and night, and of their relation to the month, and that of the month to the year, and 530b of the other stars to these and one another, do you not suppose that he will regard as a very strange fellow the man who believes that these things go on for ever without change² or the least deviation³—though they possess bodies and are visible objects—and that his unremitting quest⁴ the realities of these things?” “I at least do think so,” he said, “now that I hear it from you.” “It is by means of problems,⁵ then,” said I, “as in the study of geometry, that we will pursue astronomy too, and 530c we will let be the things in the heavens,⁶ if we are to have a part in the true science of astronomy and so convert to right use from uselessness that natural indwelling intelligence of the soul.” “You enjoin a task,” he said, “that will multiply the labor⁷ of our present study of astronomy many times.” “And I fancy,” I said, “that our other injunctions will be of the same kind if we are of any use as lawgivers.
“However, what suitable studies have you to suggest?” Nothing, he said, “thus off-hand.” “Yet, surely,” said I, “motion⁸ in general provides not one but many forms or species, 530d according to my opinion. To enumerate them all will perhaps be the task of a wise man,⁹ but even to us two of them are apparent.” “What are they?” “In addition to astronomy, its counterpart, I replied.” “What is that?” “We may venture to suppose,” I said, “that as the eyes are framed for astronomy so the ears are framed,¹⁰ for the movements of harmony; and these are in some sort kindred sciences,¹¹ as the Pythagoreans¹² affirm and we admit,¹³ do we not, Glaucon?” “We do,” he said. 530e Then, said I, since the task is, so great, shall we not inquire of them¹⁴ what their opinion is and whether they have anything to add? And we in all this¹⁵ will be on the watch for what concerns us.” “What is that?” “To prevent our fosterlings from attempting to learn anything that does not conduce to the end¹⁶ we have in view, and does not always come out at what we said ought to be the goal of everything, as we were just now saying about astronomy.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

τῷ ὄντι δὴ κτλ. It has been conjectured by Brandt ( z. Entw. d. plat. Lehr. v. d. Seelenteilen p. 8) that Plato is thinking of Eudoxus; but there is nothing to suggest a specific reference here, as there was in 528 B, C, and as Eudoxus, “the father of scientific astronomical observation in Greece” was preeminently “a practical observer” (Allman Gk. Geometry etc. p. 142), he would hardly be described by Plato in this passage as τῷ ὄντι ἀστρονομικός. See also Hirmer Entst. u. Komp. d. plat. Pol. p. 667.

τὰ τοιαῦτα : i.e. ὁρατά, σωματοειδῆ.

τῷ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ δημιουργῷ : the Demiurgus of the Timaeus.

τὴν δὲ νυκτὸς κτλ. : with which astronomical observation is concerned. Plato's tone is very different in the Timaeus (47 A ff.) as Grote points out ( Plato III p. 235 note, where also an amusing parallel is quoted from Malebranche); but it should be remembered that it is with the educational value of astronomy as a preparation for Dialectic that we are here concerned (note εἰ μέλλομεν—ποιήσειν in B, and see App. II).

τῶν ἄλλων ἄστρων : ‘the other stars’ (Schneider), as ταῦτα shews, not ‘the stars besides’ (as Stallbaum).

ταῦτα : viz. the Sun and Moon, which make day, night, year, and month.

παραλλάττειν ‐‐ ὁρώμενα is a cardinal principle with Plato: see Tim. 28 A , B, 37 D and especially Pol. 269 D , E. παράλλαξις is used half-technically of any change or deviation in the courses of the heavenly bodies, as for example in the legend of Atreus ( Pol. 269 A ): cf. Tim. 22 C .

ζητεῖν depends on ἄτοπον ἡγήσεται, ἄτοπον being now taken as neuter. A reference to 525 B note will shew that Madvig's ζητήσει (or ζητεῖν δεῖν), and Richards' ζητοῦντα, with other conjectures, are wholly beside the mark. J. and C. (following Stallbaum) say ζητεῖν “depends on νομίζοντα with the common ellipse of δεῖν”: but δεῖν is not commonly omitted. In ζητεῖν—λαβεῖν there is a slight suggestion of something like the historical Socrates' distrust of astronomy ( Xen. Mem. IV 7. 6 ).

προβλήμασιν κτλ. Some have cited in illustration “Leverrier and Adams calculating an unknown planet into existence by enormous heaps of algebra” (De Morgan, quoted by Bosanquet p. 293: cf. Lutoslawski Plato's Logic p. 300). The example is striking but inapposite; for, according to this passage, the visible perturbations of Uranus, which occasioned the search for Neptune, would not have seemed to Plato anything very extraordinary. Unless he is greatly exaggerating here, and I do not deny that throughout this passage there is a touch of γενναῖον πάθος, ὥσπερ ὑπὸ μανίας τινὸς καὶ πνεύματος ἐνθουσιαστικῶς ἐκπνέον καὶ οἱονεὶ φοιβάζον τοὺς λόγους (Longinus περὶ ὕψους 8. 4), Plato's views on law in the heavens must have undergone considerable modification before he wrote the Laws: see the striking passage 821 B ff., and Tim. 47 A ff.

τὰ δ’ ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ ἐάσομεν : ‘we will dispense with the starry heavens.’ There is a touch of fine audacity, not to say impiety, in Plato's phrase. Greater than the starry heavens is the mind of man. Nettleship ( Lect. and Rem. II pp. 271— 277) and Bosanquet ( Companion pp. 290—293) are, as it seems to me, unduly anxious throughout the whole of this episode to minimise and explain away Plato's depreciation of the senses and their objects, although by so doing they can make his theories harmonize more nearly with the views of certain modern philosophers, and possibly also with the truth. Krohn ( Pl. St. pp. 170—174) inclines to the opposite error, although, except perhaps on verbal grounds, Plato would not quarrel with his definition of Platonic astronomy as “die Wissenschaft von den Bewegungen intelligiblen Körper.” Plato's Astronomy is in fact a kind of idealised Kinematics, with occasional illustrations from the visible movements of the heavenly bodies ( τῇ περὶ τὸν οὐρανὸν ποικιλίᾳ παραδείγμασι χρηστέον κτλ. 529 D).

οἶμαι δέ γε κτλ. 526 C note

ἀλλὰ γὰρ κτλ. Socrates means: If you criticise my curriculum (as in ἦ πολλαπλάσιον—προστάττεις), you are doubtless ready with suggestions of your own: hence I appeal to you: ‘what suitable study can you suggest?’ ‘I cannot,’ says Glauco, ‘make any suggestion straight off.’ ἀλλὰ γάρ (‘however’ as in Theaet. 144 B , Symp. 220 E ) goes closely with the previous sentence; if it were otherwise, Plato would have added ἦν δ’ ἐγώ or the like. The reading ἀλλὰ γάρ τι ( q Vind. F, Hermann etc.) can hardly stand; nor is Steinhart's ἄλλο γάρ τι κτλ., or Richards' ἀλλὰ γὰρ <ἄλλο> τι (or ἀλλὰ γὰρ <ἔτι> τι) pleasing or probable. I formerly suggested ἀλλὰ γάρ τι ἔχεις <σὺ> ὑπομνῆσαι κτλ., the other subjects having all been suggested by Socrates and not Glauco, with the partial exception of geometry 526 C; but now believe (with Schneider) that the text is sound.

πλείω κτλ . φορά is (according to both Plato and Aristotle) a specific variety of κίνησις, being in fact, ἡ κατὰ τόπον κίνησις. Of the genus κίνησις Plato enumerates ten varieties in Laws 893 B ff.; of φορά in particular some specific εἴδη are mentioned by Arist. Eth. Nic. X 3 1174^{a} 30 ff.

πρὸς τούτῳ : “praeter astronomicum φορᾶς s. motus genus” (Stallbaum).

ὡς πρὸς ἀστρονομίαν κτλ . ἀστρονομία is φορὰ βάθους (528 E note), and appeals to the eye in the same way as ἐναρμόνιος φορά, or movement in accordance with the laws of ἁρμονία (III 397 B, 398 D, E notes), appeals to the ear. In ἐναρμόνιος φορά the air moves more or less quickly etc., and this accounts for the different pitch etc. of notes: see Tim. 67 B , 80 A ff. and Theo Smyrn. p. 50 Hiller, where this—Pythagorean as well as Platonic—theory of sound is very clearly explained. Cf. also von Jan Musici Scriptores Graeci pp. 130 ff.

ἀδελφαί τινες . Cf. [Archytas] in Mullach Frag. Phil. Graec. I p. 564 περί τε δὴ τᾶς τῶν ἄστρων ταχυτᾶτος καὶ ἐπιτολᾶν καὶ δυσίων παρέδωκαν ἁμῖν διάγνωσιν καὶ περὶ γαμετρίας καὶ ἀριθμῶν καὶ οὐχ ἥκιστα περὶ μωσικῆς· ταῦτα γὰρ τὰ μαθήματα δοκοῦντι εἶμεν ἀδελφά, ib. p. 565 and (with J. and C.) Tim. 47 B , C. The sisterhood of Music and Astronomy is best seen in the ‘harmony of the Spheres’: see X 617 B note and RP^{7}. 68 B notes

ἐκείνων πευσόμεθα κτλ. Plato does not claim to be a specialist in musical matters: cf. III 400 A. The words καὶ εἴ τι ἄλλο πρὸς τούτοις look like a general acknowledgment of obligation throughout this part of the Republic to the Pythagoreans. See App. II.

ἐξῆκον κτλ. The MS reading ἀεί, οἷ gives a weightier and better meaning than οἷ ἀεί, which Richards proposes. For ἀφήκειν Eusebius ( Praep. Ev. XIV 13. 5) has ἀνήκειν, also a rare word: Stephanus conjectured ἐφήκειν. ἀφήκειν is better, though rarer, than either: cf. (with Schneider) ἀφίκηται in 531 D. The reference in ἄρτι is to 529 A ff.

Plato Republic 7.530

ed. John Burnet

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