Plato, Republic, ed. John Burnet, 7.522

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[522] 522a
οὐ γάρ.
ἀλλʼ ἆρα μουσικὴ ὅσην τὸ πρότερον διήλθομεν;
ἀλλʼ ἦν ἐκείνη γʼ, ἔφη, ἀντίστροφος τῆς γυμναστικῆς, εἰ μέμνησαι, ἔθεσι παιδεύουσα τοὺς φύλακας, κατά τε ἁρμονίαν εὐαρμοστίαν τινά, οὐκ ἐπιστήμην, παραδιδοῦσα, καὶ κατὰ ῥυθμὸν εὐρυθμίαν, ἔν τε τοῖς λόγοις ἕτερα τούτων ἀδελφὰ ἔθη ἄττα ἔχουσα, καὶ ὅσοι μυθώδεις τῶν λόγων καὶ ὅσοι ἀληθινώτεροι ἦσαν· μάθημα δὲ πρὸς τοιοῦτόν τι 522b ἄγον, οἷον σὺ νῦν ζητεῖς, οὐδὲν ἦν ἐν αὐτῇ.
ἀκριβέστατα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἀναμιμνῄσκεις με· τῷ γὰρ ὄντι τοιοῦτον οὐδὲν εἶχεν. ἀλλʼ, ὦ δαιμόνιε Γλαύκων, τί ἂν εἴη τοιοῦτον; αἵ τε γὰρ τέχναι βάναυσοί που ἅπασαι ἔδοξαν εἶναι—
πῶς δʼ οὔ; καὶ μὴν τί ἔτʼ ἄλλο λείπεται μάθημα, μουσικῆς καὶ γυμναστικῆς καὶ τῶν τεχνῶν κεχωρισμένον;
φέρε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, εἰ μηδὲν ἔτι ἐκτὸς τούτων ἔχομεν λαβεῖν, τῶν ἐπὶ πάντα τεινόντων τι λάβωμεν.
τὸ ποῖον; 522c
οἷον τοῦτο τὸ κοινόν, ᾧ πᾶσαι προσχρῶνται τέχναι τε καὶ διάνοιαι καὶ ἐπιστῆμαι—ὃ καὶ παντὶ ἐν πρώτοις ἀνάγκη μανθάνειν.
τὸ ποῖον; ἔφη.
τὸ φαῦλον τοῦτο, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τὸ ἕν τε καὶ τὰ δύο καὶ τὰ τρία διαγιγνώσκειν· λέγω δὲ αὐτὸ ἐν κεφαλαίῳ ἀριθμόν τε καὶ λογισμόν. ἢ οὐχ οὕτω περὶ τούτων ἔχει, ὡς πᾶσα τέχνη τε καὶ ἐπιστήμη ἀναγκάζεται αὐτῶν μέτοχος γίγνεσθαι;
καὶ μάλα, ἔφη.
οὐκοῦν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ ἡ πολεμική;
πολλή, ἔφη, ἀνάγκη. 522d
παγγέλοιον γοῦν, ἔφην, στρατηγὸν Ἀγαμέμνονα ἐν ταῖς τραγῳδίαις Παλαμήδης ἑκάστοτε ἀποφαίνει. ἢ οὐκ ἐννενόηκας ὅτι φησὶν ἀριθμὸν εὑρὼν τάς τε τάξεις τῷ στρατοπέδῳ καταστῆσαι ἐν Ἰλίῳ καὶ ἐξαριθμῆσαι ναῦς τε καὶ τἆλλα πάντα, ὡς πρὸ τοῦ ἀναριθμήτων ὄντων καὶ τοῦ Ἀγαμέμνονος, ὡς ἔοικεν, οὐδʼ ὅσους πόδας εἶχεν εἰδότος, εἴπερ ἀριθμεῖν μὴ ἠπίστατο; καίτοι ποῖόν τινʼ αὐτὸν οἴει στρατηγὸν εἶναι;
ἄτοπόν τινʼ, ἔφη, ἔγωγε, εἰ ἦν τοῦτʼ ἀληθές. 522e
ἄλλο τι οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, μάθημα ἀναγκαῖον πολεμικῷ ἀνδρὶ θήσομεν λογίζεσθαί τε καὶ ἀριθμεῖν δύνασθαι;
πάντων γʼ, ἔφη, μάλιστα, εἰ καὶ ὁτιοῦν μέλλει τάξεων ἐπαΐειν, μᾶλλον δʼ εἰ καὶ ἄνθρωπος ἔσεσθαι.
ἐννοεῖς οὖν, εἶπον, περὶ τοῦτο τὸ μάθημα ὅπερ ἐγώ;
τὸ ποῖον;

Republic. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1905.

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Current edition Perseus

Πολιτεία (Greek) (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.)

Translations (1)

Republic Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).) — 7.522 focus

[522] No. “Is it, then, music, so far as we have already described it?¹” “Nay, that,” he said, “was the counterpart of gymnastics, if you remember. It educated the guardians through habits, imparting by the melody a certain harmony of spirit that is not science,² and by the rhythm measure and grace, and also qualities akin to these in the words of tales that are fables and those that are more nearly true. But it included no study that tended to any such good as 522b you are now seeking.” “Your recollection is most exact,” I said; “for in fact it had nothing of the kind. But in heaven’s name, Glaucon, what study could there be of that kind? For all the arts were in our opinion base and mechanical.³” “Surely; and yet what other study is left apart from music, gymnastics and the arts?” Come, said I, “if we are unable to discover anything outside of these, let us take 522c something that applies to all alike.⁴” What? “Why, for example, this common thing that all arts and forms of thought⁵ and all sciences employ, and which is among the first things that everybody must learn.” What? he said. “This trifling matter,⁶” I said, “of distinguishing one and two and three. I mean, in sum, number and calculation. Is it not true of them that every art and science must necessarily partake of them?” “Indeed it is,” he said. “The art of war too?” said I. “Most necessarily,” he said. 522d “Certainly, then,” said I, “Palamedes⁷ in the play is always making Agamemnon appear a most ridiculous⁸ general. Have you not noticed that he affirms that by the invention of number he marshalled the troops in the army at Troy in ranks and companies and enumerated the ships and everything else as if before that they had not been counted, and Agamemnon apparently did not know how many feet he had if he couldn’t count? And yet what sort of a General do you think he would be in that case?” “A very queer one in my opinion,” he said, “if that was true.” 522e
“Shall we not, then,” I said, “set down as a study requisite for a soldier the ability to reckon and number?” “Most certainly, if he is to know anything whatever of the ordering of his troops—or rather if he is to be a man at all.⁹” “Do you observe then,” said I, “in this study what I do?” What?

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

ὅσην κτλ. There is (as J. and C. remind us) a sense in which φιλοσοφία itself is μουσική: cf. III 403 C note and VI 499 D.

ἀντίστροφος κτλ. is best explained by III 410 C—412 A, and κατά τε ἁρμονίαν—εὐρυθμίαν by III 400 D, E.

τοῖς λόγοις . II 377 ff., III 392 A ff.

ἔφη is repeated as in Phaed. 78 A : cf. I 348 D note and VIII 557 C, Euthyd. 296 D ( ἦν δ ἐγώ repeated). Here “iteratum ἔφη—ethicam, ut ita dicam, vim habet” (Schneider). I formerly omitted the word (with Flor. T), but now believe it genuine. ἔθη ( Π ^{2}, v and two other MSS, with Eusebius Praep. Ev. XIV 13. 3) is unsuitable in point of sense, and also because of ἄττα.

ἀληθινώτεροι : not=‘more true’ but ‘true on the other hand.’ The comparative only points the contrast with μυθώδεις: cf. Homer's well-known γυναικῶν θηλυτεράων.

πρὸς τοιοῦτόν τι κτλ. : ‘useful for any such purpose as you now require.’ ἀγαθόν goes with πρός: cf. with Schneider Xen. Mem. IV 6. 10 <*>ῤ οὖν τοὺς μὲν ἀγαθοὺς πρὸς τὰ δεινὰ καὶ ἐπικίνδυνα ὄντας ἀνδρείους ἡγεῖ εἶναι, τοὺς δὲ κακοὺς δειλούς; The words οἷον—ζητεῖς are equivalent to πρὸς οἷον—ζητεῖς sc. μάθημα ἀγαθὸν εἶναι: cf. ἐν πόλει ᾗ= ἐν πόλει ἐν ᾗ (520 D note), and (for ζητεῖς with infinitive) IV 443 B. The Oxford editors connect ἀγαθόν with τοιοῦτον and not with μάθημα, referring οἷον σὺ νῦν ζητεῖς ‘probably to μάθημα’—a highly unnatural interpretation, because it separates οἷον from τοιοῦτον, and leaves πρός out in the cold. ἄγον ( γρ Π and Eusebius l. c.) for ἀγαθόν is an obvious but wholly unnecessary ‘emendation.’ The present passage is Plato's authoritative statement of the relation between his two curricula of education. The aim of the first is morality, and its method habituation; in the second knowledge is attained by a scientific discipline. Cf. II 376 E, VI 502 E notes

αἵ τε κτλ. On τε used ἀνακολούθως see II 373 B note “Quid addere Socrates in animo habuerit, Glauconis intercipientis verba docent: καὶ μὴν τί ἔτ) <*>λλο λείπεται μάθημα” (Schneider).

ἔδοξαν . VI 495 D.

διάνοιαι scarcely means the mathematical sciences here, as J. and C. suggest, but simply ‘modes of thought’: cf. VI 511 D note Plato does not, I believe, use the plural of διάνοια in its peculiar technical sense, and in any case such a meaning is here unsuitable.

τὸ ἕν τε κτλ. Cf. Laws 818 C μήτε ἓν μήτε δύο μήτε τρία μήθ’ ὅλως ἄρτια καὶ περιττὰ δυνάμενος γιγνώσκειν, μηδὲ ἀριθμεῖν τὸ παράπαν εἰδώς and [ Epin.] 977 C.

ἀριθμόν τε καὶ λογισμόν . See on λογιστική τε καὶ ἀριθμητική 525 A.

ἐν ταῖς τραγῳδίαις κτλ. Plato speaks as if he were bored to death by Palamedes' damnable iteration. Plays on the subject of Palamedes were written by all three dramatists (see the fragments of Aeschylus 180 ff., Sophocles 426 ff., Euripides 582 ff. Dindorf), and the invention of number or the like is ascribed to him by Aesch. l.c. Soph. Fr. 379 and Eur. l.c. Aeschylus also gives Prometheus the credit of the discovery ( P. V. 459 f.).

καίτοι κτλ. ‘Well, what d'ye think of Agamemnon for a general now?’ καίτοι (lit. ‘and yet’ sc. if this was true) is often thus used to introduce a question ‘cum quadam indignatione’ (real or, as here, feigned); for examples see Kugler de part. τοι ap. Pl. p. 18. ποῖόν τινα is derisive, as ποῖος constantly is: see on 1330 A. D. and V.'s translation “Yet what do you think of Agamemnon as a general?” misses the ἦθος of the original, which is correctly reproduced by Schneider and Jowett.

καὶ λογίζεσθαί τε κτλ. καί ‘also,’ because “et aliarum rerum et arithmetices peritum imperatorem esse decet” (Schneider). Cf. VI 506 A. The word is omitted by Π ^{1} q Ξ and some other MSS. καί may of course be spurious, but it was not likely to have been added by a scribe, and the balance of MS evidence is in its favour. The other variants ( ἤ and ἢ τό and μᾶλλον ἤ in place of καί) are corruptions due to the erroneous idea that ἄλλο τι is ‘any other’ and not ‘nonne.’

μᾶλλον δὲ κτλ. μᾶλλον δέ is ‘vel potius,’ as usual. ἄνθρωπος=‘human being,’ not ‘anything of a man’ (D. and V.), which suggests an entirely wrong idea. We may compare the Latin use of homo, for example in Cic. ad Quint. II 11. 5 “sed cum veneris, virum te putabo, si Sallusti Empedoclea legeris: hominem non putabo.” For the sense cf. Laws 819 D, where the Greek ignorance of arithmetic appears to Plato ούκ <*>νθρώπινον ἀλλὰ ὑηνῶν τινῶν εἶναι μᾶλλον θρεμμάτων. The knowledge of number is one of the characteristic differences between man and the lower animals: see Tim. 39 B and [ Epin.] 978 C.

Plato Republic 7.522

ed. John Burnet

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