Plato, Republic, ed. John Burnet, 5.456

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[456] 456a
καὶ γυμναστικὴ δʼ ἄρα οὔ, οὐδὲ πολεμική, ἡ δὲ ἀπόλεμος καὶ οὐ φιλογυμναστική;
οἶμαι ἔγωγε.
τί δέ; φιλόσοφός τε καὶ μισόσοφος; καὶ θυμοειδής, ἡ δʼ ἄθυμός ἐστι;
καὶ ταῦτα.
ἔστιν ἄρα καὶ φυλακικὴ γυνή, ἡ δʼ οὔ. ἢ οὐ τοιαύτην καὶ τῶν ἀνδρῶν τῶν φυλακικῶν φύσιν ἐξελεξάμεθα;
τοιαύτην μὲν οὖν.
καὶ γυναικὸς ἄρα καὶ ἀνδρὸς ἡ αὐτὴ φύσις εἰς φυλακὴν πόλεως, πλὴν ὅσα ἀσθενεστέρα, ἡ δὲ ἰσχυροτέρα ἐστίν.
φαίνεται. 456b
καὶ γυναῖκες ἄρα αἱ τοιαῦται τοῖς τοιούτοις ἀνδράσιν ἐκλεκτέαι συνοικεῖν τε καὶ συμφυλάττειν, ἐπείπερ εἰσὶν ἱκαναὶ καὶ συγγενεῖς αὐτοῖς τὴν φύσιν.
πάνυ γε.
τὰ δʼ ἐπιτηδεύματα οὐ τὰ αὐτὰ ἀποδοτέα ταῖς αὐταῖς φύσεσιν;
τὰ αὐτά.
ἥκομεν ἄρα εἰς τὰ πρότερα περιφερόμενοι, καὶ ὁμολογοῦμεν μὴ παρὰ φύσιν εἶναι ταῖς τῶν φυλάκων γυναιξὶ μουσικήν τε καὶ γυμναστικὴν ἀποδιδόναι.
παντάπασιν μὲν οὖν.
οὐκ ἄρα ἀδύνατά γε οὐδὲ εὐχαῖς ὅμοια ἐνομοθετοῦμεν, 456c ἐπείπερ κατὰ φύσιν ἐτίθεμεν τὸν νόμον· ἀλλὰ τὰ νῦν παρὰ ταῦτα γιγνόμενα παρὰ φύσιν μᾶλλον, ὡς ἔοικε, γίγνεται.
ἔοικεν.
οὐκοῦν ἡ ἐπίσκεψις ἡμῖν ἦν εἰ δυνατά γε καὶ βέλτιστα λέγοιμεν;
ἦν γάρ.
καὶ ὅτι μὲν δὴ δυνατά, διωμολόγηται;
ναί.
ὅτι δὲ δὴ βέλτιστα, τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο δεῖ διομολογηθῆναι;
δῆλον.
οὐκοῦν πρός γε τὸ φυλακικὴν γυναῖκα γενέσθαι, οὐκ ἄλλη μὲν ἡμῖν ἄνδρας ποιήσει παιδεία, ἄλλη δὲ γυναῖκας, ἄλλως 456d τε καὶ τὴν αὐτὴν φύσιν παραλαβοῦσα;
οὐκ ἄλλη.
πῶς οὖν ἔχεις δόξης τοῦ τοιοῦδε πέρι;
τίνος δή;
τοῦ ὑπολαμβάνειν παρὰ σεαυτῷ τὸν μὲν ἀμείνω ἄνδρα, τὸν δὲ χείρω· ἢ πάντας ὁμοίους ἡγῇ;
οὐδαμῶς.
ἐν οὖν τῇ πόλει ἣν ᾠκίζομεν, πότερον οἴει ἡμῖν ἀμείνους ἄνδρας ἐξειργάσθαι τοὺς φύλακας, τυχόντας ἧς διήλθομεν παιδείας, ἢ τοὺς σκυτοτόμους, τῇ σκυτικῇ παιδευθέντας;
γελοῖον, ἔφη, ἐρωτᾷς.
μανθάνω, ἔφην. τί δέ; τῶν ἄλλων πολιτῶν οὐχ οὗτοι 456e ἄριστοι;
πολύ γε.
τί δέ; αἱ γυναῖκες τῶν γυναικῶν οὐχ αὗται ἔσονται βέλτισται;
καὶ τοῦτο, ἔφη, πολύ.
ἔστι δέ τι πόλει ἄμεινον ἢ γυναῖκάς τε καὶ ἄνδρας ὡς ἀρίστους ἐγγίγνεσθαι;
οὐκ ἔστιν.

Republic. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1905.

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Current edition Perseus

Πολιτεία (Greek) (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.)

Translations (1)

Republic Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).) — 5.456 focus

[456] Can we, then, deny that one woman is naturally athletic 456a and warlike and another unwarlike and averse to gymnastics? I think not. And again, one a lover, another a hater, of wisdom? And one high-spirited, and the other lacking spirit? That also is true. Then it is likewise true that one woman has the qualities of a guardian and another not. Were not these the natural qualities of the men also whom we selected for guardians? They were. The women and the men, then, have the same nature in respect to the guardianship of the state, save in so far as the one is weaker, the other stronger. Apparently. 456b
Women of this kind, then, must be selected to cohabit with men of this kind and to serve with them as guardians since they are capable of it and akin by nature. By all means. And to the same natures must we not assign the same pursuits? The same. We come round,¹ then, to our previous statement, and agree that it does not run counter to nature to assign music and gymnastics to the wives of the guardians. 456c By all means. Our legislation, then, was not impracticable or utopian,² since the law we proposed accorded with nature. Rather, the other way of doing things, prevalent today, proves, as it seems, unnatural. Apparently. The object of our inquiry was the possibility and the desirability³ of what we were proposing. It was. That it is possible has been admitted. Yes. The next point to be agreed upon is that it is the best way. Obviously. For the production of a guardian, then, education will not be one thing for our men and another for our women, especially since 456d the nature which we hand over to it is the same. There will be no difference. How are you minded, now, in this matter? In what? In the matter of supposing some men to be better and some worse,⁴ or do you think them all alike? By no means. In the city, then, that we are founding, which do you think will prove the better men, the guardians receiving the education which we have described or the cobblers educated by the art of cobbling⁵? An absurd question, he said. 456e I understand, said I; and are not these the best of all the citizens? By far. And will not these women be the best of all the women? They, too, by far. Is there anything better for a state than the generation in it of the best possible women⁶ and men? There is not.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

πλὴν ὅσα κτλ. For ὅσα Eusebius ( Praep. Ev. XII 32. 5) read ὅσῳ followed by ἀσθενεστέρα, ἡ δὲ ἰσχυροτέρα ἐστί, and the dative was also preferred by Schneider ( Addit. p. 38). The neuter plural of ὅσος is however used adverbially as well as the neuter singular; and the dative of ‘amount of difference’ is scarcely to the point. Instead of ἀσθενεστέρα ἢ ἰσχυροτέρα we might read (with A^{2}) ἀσθενεστέρα ἰσχυροτέρας. But the reading in the text is preferable, because it lays more stress on the identity of the male and female nature. It is the same nature, only it is stronger in men, and weaker in women. ἤ=‘or’ and not ‘than.’

ξυγγενεῖς ‐‐ τὴν φύσιν . J. and C. remark that “in the Politicus and Laws, on the other hand, the aim of the legislator is rather to unite in marriage opposite natures that they may supplement each other: Pol. 309, 310, Laws 773 ff.” Such a marriage law is unnecessary in the Republic, where the opposite qualities of strength and sensibility are already united in the character of each of the parents. See on II 375 C.

εὐχαῖς ὅμοια . Cf. 450 D note

κατὰ φύσιν . 449 A notes Plato's proposals — so he asserts — are ‘natural,’ because in harmony with the natural endowments of gifted women; and it is because they are natural that he calls them possible. The definition of δυνατόν is interesting and noteworthy: see 466 D and 471 C note Grote ( Plato III p. 201) has observed that Plato is here refuting a current objection to his theories: in the next sentence he turns his adversaries' weapon against themselves.

ἦν . 452 E.

Plato Republic 5.456

ed. John Burnet

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