Plato, Republic, ed. John Burnet, 3.408

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[408]
δῆλον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ· καὶ οἱ παῖδες αὐτοῦ, ὅτι τοιοῦτος ἦν, 408a οὐχ ὁρᾷς ὡς καὶ ἐν Τροίᾳ ἀγαθοὶ πρὸς τὸν πόλεμον ἐφάνησαν, καὶ τῇ ἰατρικῇ, ὡς ἐγὼ λέγω, ἐχρῶντο; ἢ οὐ μέμνησαι ὅτι καὶ τῷ Μενέλεῳ ἐκ τοῦ τραύματος οὗ ὁ Πάνδαρος ἔβαλεν—

αἷμʼ ἐκμυζήσαντες ἐπʼ ἤπια φάρμακʼ ἔπασσον,

Hom. Il. 4.218 ὅτι δʼ ἐχρῆν μετὰ τοῦτο ἢ πιεῖν ἢ φαγεῖν οὐδὲν μᾶλλον ἢ τῷ Εὐρυπύλῳ προσέταττον, ὡς ἱκανῶν ὄντων τῶν φαρμάκων ἰάσασθαι ἄνδρας πρὸ τῶν τραυμάτων ὑγιεινούς τε καὶ 408b κοσμίους ἐν διαίτῃ, κἂν εἰ τύχοιεν ἐν τῷ παραχρῆμα κυκεῶνα πιόντες, νοσώδη δὲ φύσει τε καὶ ἀκόλαστον οὔτε αὐτοῖς οὔτε τοῖς ἄλλοις ᾤοντο λυσιτελεῖν ζῆν, οὐδʼ ἐπὶ τούτοις τὴν τέχνην δεῖν εἶναι, οὐδὲ θεραπευτέον αὐτούς, οὐδʼ εἰ Μίδου πλουσιώτεροι εἶεν.
πάνυ κομψούς, ἔφη, λέγεις Ἀσκληπιοῦ παῖδας.
πρέπει, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καίτοι ἀπειθοῦντές γε ἡμῖν οἱ τραγῳδοποιοί τε καὶ Πίνδαρος Ἀπόλλωνος μέν φασιν Ἀσκληπιὸν εἶναι, ὑπὸ δὲ χρυσοῦ πεισθῆναι πλούσιον ἄνδρα θανάσιμον 408c ἤδη ὄντα ἰάσασθαι, ὅθεν δὴ καὶ κεραυνωθῆναι αὐτόν. ἡμεῖς δὲ κατὰ τὰ προειρημένα οὐ πεισόμεθα αὐτοῖς ἀμφότερα, ἀλλʼ εἰ μὲν θεοῦ ἦν, οὐκ ἦν, φήσομεν, αἰσχροκερδής· εἰ δʼ αἰσχροκερδής, οὐκ ἦν θεοῦ.
ὀρθότατα, ἦ δʼ ὅς, ταῦτά γε. ἀλλὰ περὶ τοῦδε τί λέγεις, ὦ Σώκρατες; ἆρʼ οὐκ ἀγαθοὺς δεῖ ἐν τῇ πόλει κεκτῆσθαι ἰατρούς; εἶεν δʼ ἄν που μάλιστα τοιοῦτοι ὅσοι 408d πλείστους μὲν ὑγιεινούς, πλείστους δὲ νοσώδεις μετεχειρίσαντο, καὶ δικασταὶ αὖ ὡσαύτως οἱ παντοδαπαῖς φύσεσιν ὡμιληκότες.
καὶ μάλα, εἶπον, ἀγαθοὺς λέγω. ἀλλʼ οἶσθα οὓς ἡγοῦμαι τοιούτους;
ἂν εἴπῃς, ἔφη.
ἀλλὰ πειράσομαι, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ· σὺ μέντοι οὐχ ὅμοιον πρᾶγμα τῷ αὐτῷ λόγῳ ἤρου.
πῶς; ἔφη.
ἰατροὶ μέν, εἶπον, δεινότατοι ἂν γένοιντο, εἰ ἐκ παίδων ἀρξάμενοι πρὸς τῷ μανθάνειν τὴν τέχνην ὡς πλείστοις τε καὶ πονηροτάτοις σώμασιν ὁμιλήσειαν καὶ αὐτοὶ πάσας 408e νόσους κάμοιεν καὶ εἶεν μὴ πάνυ ὑγιεινοὶ φύσει. οὐ γὰρ οἶμαι σώματι σῶμα θεραπεύουσιν—οὐ γὰρ ἂν αὐτὰ ἐνεχώρει κακὰ εἶναί ποτε καὶ γενέσθαι—ἀλλὰ ψυχῇ σῶμα, ᾗ οὐκ ἐγχωρεῖ κακὴν γενομένην τε καὶ οὖσαν εὖ τι θεραπεύειν.
ὀρθῶς, ἔφη.

Republic. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1905.

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Current edition Perseus

Πολιτεία (Greek) (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.)

Translations (1)

Republic Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).) — 3.408 focus

[408] Obviously, said I, that was his character. And his sons too, don’t you in see that at Troy they approved 408a themselves good fighting-men and practised medicine as I described it? Don’t you remember¹ that in the case of Menelaus too from the wound that Pandarus inflicted

They sucked the blood, and soothing simples sprinkled?

Hom. Il. 4.218 ² But what he was to eat or drink thereafter they no more prescribed than for Eurypylus, taking it for granted that the remedies sufficed to heal men who before their wounds were healthy and temperate in diet 408b even if they did happen for the nonce to drink a posset; but they thought that the life of a man constitutionally sickly and intemperate was of no use to himself or others, and that the art of medicine should not be for such nor should they be given treatment even if they were richer than Midas.³ Very ingenious fellows, he said, you make out these sons of Asclepius to be.
’Tis fitting, said I; and yet in disregard of our principles the tragedians and Pindar⁴ affirm that Asclepius, though he was the son of Apollo, was bribed by gold 408c to heal a man already at the point of death, and that for this cause he was struck by the lightning. But we in accordance with the aforesaid principles⁵ refuse to believe both statements, but if he was the son of a god he was not avaricious, we will insist, and if he was greedy of gain he was not the son of a god. That much, said he, is most certainly true. But what have you to say to this, Socrates, must we not have good physicians in our city? And they would be the most likely to be good who had treated the greatest number of healthy and diseased men, 408d and so good judges would be those who had associated with all sorts and conditions of men. Most assuredly I want them good, I said; but do you know whom I regard as such? I’ll know if you tell,⁶ he said. Well, I will try, said I. You, however, have put unlike cases in one question. How so? said he. Physicians, it is true, I said, would prove most skilled if, from childhood up, in addition to learning the principles of the art they had familiarized themselves with the greatest possible number of the most sickly bodies, 408e and if they themselves had suffered all diseases and were not of very healthy constitution. For you see they do not treat the body by the body.⁷ If they did, it would not be allowable for their bodies to be or to have been in evil condition. But they treat the body with the mind—and it is not competent for a mind that is or has been evil to treat anything well. Right, he said.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

ὡς ἐγὼ λέγω . ὡς is emphatic, ‘in the way I describe.’

αἷμ) ‐‐ ἔπασσον . Il. IV 218 αἷμ’ ἐκμυζήσας ἐπ’ ἄρ’ ἤπια φάρμακα εἰδὼς | πάσσε, said of Machaon only. Plato ingeniously accommodates the line to his own purposes. ἐκμυζήσαντ) is of course the aorist indicative ἐκμυζήσαντο, not the dual participle as J. and C. hold. This was pointed out by Schneider. Verbs denoting any kind of organic action are apt to be middle in Attic (Rutherford New Phrynichus pp. 138 ff.). It would be easy to write ἐκμύζησάν τ) (as I once did) and retain Homer's active, but it is not worth while.

κἂν εἰ has come to mean no more than καὶ εἰ: cf. infra V 477 A, IX 579 D, X 612 C and Jebb on Soph. El. pp. 224 f. The change from the plural πιόντες to the singular νοσώδη has been doubted by Herwerden; but see I 347 A note In illustration of κυκεῶνα πιόντες Schneider ( Addit. p. 25) refers to Hippocr. περὶ διαίτης ὀξέων II p. 304 f. Littré οἱ γὰρ ἀρχόμενοι τῶν ὀξέων νουσημάτων ἔστιν ὅτε οἱ μὲν σιτία ἔφαγον—οἱ δὲ καὶ κυκεῶνα ἐρρόφεον· ἅπαντα δὲ ταῦτα κακίω μέν ἐστιν ἢ εἰ ἑτεροίως τις διαιτηθείη κτλ.

Μίδου πλουσιώτεροι : with reference (as Stallbaum observes) to Tyrt. 12. 6 (Bergk): cf. Laws 660 E.

τραγῳδοποιοί τε καὶ Πίνδαρος . Aesch. Ag. 1022 f., Eur. Alc. 3 , Pind. Pyth. 3. 55—58 ( αἴθων δὲ κεραυνὸς ἐνέσκιμψεν μόρον).

πειθόμεθα was much more likely to be corrupted to πεισόμεθα (so q, with Stallbaum and others) than vice versâ, on account of φήσομεν. The present is more pointed and expressive; our rule has been laid down (391 D), and we abide by it now and always.

ὅσοι κτλ. Glauco's conception of the medical art resembles that of the later ἐμπειρικοί: see Celsus de med. Proem. pp. 5—9 ed. Daremberg, and infra 408 D note

καὶ μάλα ‐‐ λέγω . Socrates replies to ἆρ’ οὐκ—ἰατρούς; ignoring, or nearly ignoring, εἶεν δ’ ἂν—ὡμιληκότες: cf. V 465 E note καὶ μάλα is simply ‘certainly,’ and ἀγαθοὺς λέγω lays stress on ἀγαθούς: ‘that is, if they are really good,’ ‘ good ones, I mean.’ There is perhaps a hint that the good physician and the good judge must also be good men: cf. 409 C. To substitute with Hartman μάλιστα for μάλα (as in many MSS) is to mistake the force of λέγω.

ἰατροὶ κτλ. The combination of scientific knowledge ( πρὸς τῷ μανθάνειν τὴν τέχνην) and medical experience which Plato desiderates reminds us of the standpoint of the μεθοδικοί, whose principles were in some respects a compromise between those of the δογματικοί or Theorists, and those of the Empirics: see Celsus l.c. pp. 9—13 and Häser Lehrb. d. Gesch. d. Med. etc. pp. 245 ff., 268 ff.

ψυχῇ ψυχῆς . Cf. Gorg. 523 C —E.

Plato Republic 3.408

ed. John Burnet

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