Plato, Republic, ed. John Burnet, 2.357

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[357] 357a
ἐγὼ μὲν οὖν ταῦτα εἰπὼν ᾤμην λόγου ἀπηλλάχθαι· τὸ δʼ ἦν ἄρα, ὡς ἔοικε, προοίμιον. ὁ γὰρ Γλαύκων ἀεί τε δὴ ἀνδρειότατος ὢν τυγχάνει πρὸς ἅπαντα, καὶ δὴ καὶ τότε τοῦ Θρασυμάχου τὴν ἀπόρρησιν οὐκ ἀπεδέξατο, ἀλλʼ ἔφη· ὦ Σώκρατες, πότερον ἡμᾶς βούλει δοκεῖν πεπεικέναι ἢ ὡς 357b ἀληθῶς πεῖσαι ὅτι παντὶ τρόπῳ ἄμεινόν ἐστιν δίκαιον εἶναι ἢ ἄδικον;
ὡς ἀληθῶς, εἶπον, ἔγωγʼ ἂν ἑλοίμην, εἰ ἐπʼ ἐμοὶ εἴη.
οὐ τοίνυν, ἔφη, ποιεῖς ὃ βούλει. λέγε γάρ μοι· ἆρά σοι δοκεῖ τοιόνδε τι εἶναι ἀγαθόν, ὃ δεξαίμεθʼ ἂν ἔχειν οὐ τῶν ἀποβαινόντων ἐφιέμενοι, ἀλλʼ αὐτὸ αὑτοῦ ἕνεκα ἀσπαζόμενοι, οἷον τὸ χαίρειν καὶ αἱ ἡδοναὶ ὅσαι ἀβλαβεῖς καὶ μηδὲν εἰς τὸν ἔπειτα χρόνον διὰ ταύτας γίγνεται ἄλλο ἢ χαίρειν ἔχοντα;
ἔμοιγε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, δοκεῖ τι εἶναι τοιοῦτον. 357c
τί δέ; ὃ αὐτό τε αὑτοῦ χάριν ἀγαπῶμεν καὶ τῶν ἀπʼ αὐτοῦ γιγνομένων, οἷον αὖ τὸ φρονεῖν καὶ τὸ ὁρᾶν καὶ τὸ ὑγιαίνειν; τὰ γὰρ τοιαῦτά που διʼ ἀμφότερα ἀσπαζόμεθα.
ναί, εἶπον.
τρίτον δὲ ὁρᾷς τι, ἔφη, εἶδος ἀγαθοῦ, ἐν ᾧ τὸ γυμνάζεσθαι καὶ τὸ κάμνοντα ἰατρεύεσθαι καὶ ἰάτρευσίς τε καὶ ὁ ἄλλος χρηματισμός; ταῦτα γὰρ ἐπίπονα φαῖμεν ἄν, ὠφελεῖν δὲ ἡμᾶς, καὶ αὐτὰ μὲν ἑαυτῶν ἕνεκα οὐκ ἂν δεξαίμεθα ἔχειν, 357d τῶν δὲ μισθῶν τε χάριν καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ὅσα γίγνεται ἀπʼ αὐτῶν.
ἔστιν γὰρ οὖν, ἔφην, καὶ τοῦτο τρίτον. ἀλλὰ τί δή;
ἐν ποίῳ, ἔφη, τούτων τὴν δικαιοσύνην τιθεῖς;

Republic. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1905.

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Current edition Perseus

Πολιτεία (Greek) (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.)

Translations (1)

Republic Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).) — 2.357 focus

[357] 357a
When I had said this I supposed that I was done with the subject, but it all turned out to be only a prelude. For Glaucon, who is always an intrepid enterprising spirit in everything, would not on this occasion acquiesce in Thrasymachus’s abandonment¹ of his case, but said, Socrates, is it your desire to seem to have persuaded us 357b or really to persuade us that it is without exception better to be just than unjust? Really, I said, if the choice rested with me. Well, then, you are not doing what you wish. For tell me: do you agree that there is a kind of good² which we would choose to possess, not from desire for its after effects, but welcoming it for its own sake? As, for example, joy and such pleasures are harmless³ and nothing results from them afterwards save to have and to hold the enjoyment. 357c I recognise that kind, said I. And again a kind that we love both for its own sake and for its consequences,⁴ such as understanding,⁵ sight, and health?⁶ For these presume we welcome for both reasons. Yes, I said. And can you discern a third form of good under which falls exercise and being healed when sick and the art of healing and the making of money generally? For of them we would say that they are laborious and painful yet beneficial, and for their own sake 357d we would not accept them, but only for the rewards and other benefits that accrue from them. Why yes, I said, I must admit this third class also. But what of it? In which of these classes do you place justice? he said.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

ἐγὼ κτλ. λόγου is abstract = τοῦ λέγειν, not ‘the discussion’ (Jowett), which would be τοῦ λόγου. For τὸ δέ see on I 340 D.

ἦν ἄρα : ‘was after all,’ as in IV 443 C τὸ δέ γε ἦν ἄρα—εἴδωλόν τι τῆς δικαιοσύνης and Soph. Tr. 1172 τὸ δ’ ἦν ἄρ’ οὐδὲν ἄλλο πλὴν θανεῖν ἐμέ. With προοίμιον cf. infra VII 531 D, Aesch. P. V. 740 f. ο<*>ς γὰρ νῦν ἀκήκοας λόγους | εἶναι δοκεῖ σοι μηδέπω )ν προοιμίοις, and Shakespeare Macbeth I 3 “As happy prologues to the swelling act Of the imperial theme.” For the sense see the last note on Book I. There is no good ground for supposing (with von Sybel De Platonis Proemiis Academicis) that either Book I of the Republic or the rest of Plato's dialogues were intended merely as προοίμια or ‘Programs’ to attract pupils to his lectures.

βούλει κτλ. The antithesis is between δοκεῖν πεπεικέναι and πεῖσαι, and βούλει is used in its natural sense, not (as Ast thinks) with the force of μᾶλλον βούλει.

λέγε γάρ μοι . Other classifications of ‘goods’ in Plato will be found in Laws 631 B ff. and 697 B ff. (with which compare Arist. Eth. Nic. I 8. 1098^{b} 12 ff.). See also Euthyd. 279 A ff., Gorg. 467 E , Phil. 66 A ff. The nearest parallels to the present classification are furnished by Stoicism, in which goods were classified as a τελικά, b ποιητικά, c both τελικά and ποιητικά, and the προηγμένα as a δἰ αὑτά, b δἰ ἕτερα, c καὶ δἰ αὑτὰ καὶ δἰ ἕτερα see D. L. VII 96, 107.

χαίρειν ‐‐ ἀβλαβεῖς . These ‘innocent pleasures’ are defined in Laws 667 E as those which bring no consequences in their train, good, bad, or otherwise (cf. καὶ μηδὲν εἰς τὸν ἔπειτα χρόνον διὰ ταύτας γίγνεται ἄλλο ἢ χαίρειν ἔχοντα). They are not quite identical with the ‘pure pleasures’ of Phil. 51 B , which are not necessarily devoid of all results, but only of pain. The same conception recurs in Aristotle, who regards the ἀβλαβεῖς ἡδοναί both as conducive to the ethical end and as useful for purposes of recreation ( Pol. Θ 5. 1339^{b} 25).

καὶ μηδὲν κτλ. The relative passes into a demonstrative ( ταύτας) in the second half of the sentence, as in III 412 D, VI 505 D, E, VII 521 B, and elsewhere. The idiom is regular in Greek, but the second pronoun is more usually some case of αὐτός than of οὗτος, e.g. III 395 D, VI 511 C, Gorg. 452 D , Theaet. 192 A . Cobet however ( Mnem. XI p. 167) goes too far in maintaining that αὐτός is alone permissible in this idiom. Cf. Engelhardt Anac. Plat. Spec. III pp. 41—43. μηδέν is used in preference to οὐδέν: for “cogitatione circumscriptum genus significatur” (Schneider). With the sentiment Muretus compared Arist. Eth. Nic. X 2. 1172^{b} 22 οὐδένα γὰρ ἐπερωτᾶν τίνος ἕνεκα ἥδεται, ὡς καθ’ αὑτὴν οὖσαν αἱρετὴν τὴν ἡδονήν.

ἔχοντα : sc. αὐτάς (so also Schneider), not the idiomatic ‘to continue rejoicing’ (as Campbell suggests). The essential mark of these pleasures, viz. that they give pleasure only while they last, is brought out by ἔχοντα, which recalls δεξαίμεθ’ ἂν ἔχειν just above, and is used without an expressed object as in 366 E.

τὸ φρονεῖν ‐‐ ὑγιαίνειν . ἀκούειν is added in 367 C. Cf. Arist. Eth. Nic. I 4. 1096^{b} 16 καθ) αὑτὰ δὲ ποῖα θείη τις ἄν; ἢ ὅσα καὶ μονούμενα διώκεται, οἷον τὸ φρονεῖν καὶ ὁρᾶν καὶ ἡδοναί τινες καὶ τιμαί; ταῦτα γὰρ εἰ καὶ δἰ ἄλλο τι διώκομεν, ὅμως τῶν καθ) αὑτὰ ἀγαθῶν θείη τις ἄν: also Met. A 1. 980^{a} 2 ff. Aristotle himself does not suggest that a special class should be made of things desirable both in themselves and for their results; but integri sensus and bona valetudo are included in the Stoic category of προηγμένα καὶ δἰ αὑτὰ καὶ δἰ ἕτερα (Cic. De Fin. III 56: cf. D. L. VII 107).

γυμνάζεσθαι κτλ. Cf. Prot. 354 A and Gorg. 467 C , D (where χρηματισμός is again said to belong to this class). ἰάτρευσις as an example of χρηματισμός (in spite of the ἀκριβὴς λόγος of I 342 B ff.) is suggested by ἰατρεύεσθαι. ὁ ἄλλος is ‘the rest of,’ and should not be taken (with Stallbaum) as praeterea: cf. Gorg. l.c. οἱ πλέοντές τε καὶ τὸν ἄλλον χρηματισμὸν χρηματιζόμενοι and Crito 53 E.

πλούτου δὲ οὐδέν and Liebhold ( Fl. Jahrb. 1888, p. 107)

κόσμου δὲ ἄλλο μὲν <ἔχοντ)> οὐδέν for τοῦτον δὲ ἄλλο μὲν οὐδέν. Neither of these proposals has any plausibility, and it is best to regard this as one of the places where we owe the right reading to Π .

Plato Republic 2.357

ed. John Burnet

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