Plato, Republic, ed. John Burnet, 10.615

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[615] διηγεῖσθαι δὲ ἀλλήλαις τὰς 615a μὲν ὀδυρομένας τε καὶ κλαούσας, ἀναμιμνῃσκομένας ὅσα τε καὶ οἷα πάθοιεν καὶ ἴδοιεν ἐν τῇ ὑπὸ γῆς πορείᾳ—εἶναι δὲ τὴν πορείαν χιλιέτη—τὰς δʼ αὖ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ εὐπαθείας διηγεῖσθαι καὶ θέας ἀμηχάνους τὸ κάλλος. τὰ μὲν οὖν πολλά, ὦ Γλαύκων, πολλοῦ χρόνου διηγήσασθαι· τὸ δʼ οὖν κεφάλαιον ἔφη τόδε εἶναι, ὅσα πώποτέ τινα ἠδίκησαν καὶ ὅσους ἕκαστοι, ὑπὲρ ἁπάντων δίκην δεδωκέναι ἐν μέρει, ὑπὲρ ἑκάστου δεκάκις—τοῦτο δʼ εἶναι κατὰ ἑκατονταετηρίδα 615b ἑκάστην, ὡς βίου ὄντος τοσούτου τοῦ ἀνθρωπίνου—ἵνα δεκαπλάσιον τὸ ἔκτεισμα τοῦ ἀδικήματος ἐκτίνοιεν, καὶ οἷον εἴ τινες πολλοῖς θανάτων ἦσαν αἴτιοι, ἢ πόλεις προδόντες ἢ στρατόπεδα, καὶ εἰς δουλείας ἐμβεβληκότες ἤ τινος ἄλλης κακουχίας μεταίτιοι, πάντων τούτων δεκαπλασίας ἀλγηδόνας ὑπὲρ ἑκάστου κομίσαιντο, καὶ αὖ εἴ τινας εὐεργεσίας εὐεργετηκότες καὶ δίκαιοι καὶ ὅσιοι γεγονότες εἶεν, κατὰ ταὐτὰ 615c τὴν ἀξίαν κομίζοιντο. τῶν δὲ εὐθὺς γενομένων καὶ ὀλίγον χρόνον βιούντων πέρι ἄλλα ἔλεγεν οὐκ ἄξια μνήμης. εἰς δὲ θεοὺς ἀσεβείας τε καὶ εὐσεβείας καὶ γονέας καὶ αὐτόχειρος φόνου μείζους ἔτι τοὺς μισθοὺς διηγεῖτο.
ἔφη γὰρ δὴ παραγενέσθαι ἐρωτωμένῳ ἑτέρῳ ὑπὸ ἑτέρου ὅπου εἴη Ἀρδιαῖος ὁ μέγας. ὁ δὲ Ἀρδιαῖος οὗτος τῆς Παμφυλίας ἔν τινι πόλει τύραννος ἐγεγόνει, ἤδη χιλιοστὸν ἔτος εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν χρόνον, γέροντά τε πατέρα ἀποκτείνας 615d καὶ πρεσβύτερον ἀδελφόν, καὶ ἄλλα δὴ πολλά τε καὶ ἀνόσια εἰργασμένος, ὡς ἐλέγετο. ἔφη οὖν τὸν ἐρωτώμενον εἰπεῖν, οὐχ ἥκει, φάναι, οὐδʼ ἂν ἥξει δεῦρο. ἐθεασάμεθα γὰρ οὖν δὴ καὶ τοῦτο τῶν δεινῶν θεαμάτων· ἐπειδὴ ἐγγὺς τοῦ στομίου ἦμεν μέλλοντες ἀνιέναι καὶ τἆλλα πάντα πεπονθότες, ἐκεῖνόν τε κατείδομεν ἐξαίφνης καὶ ἄλλους—σχεδόν τι αὐτῶν τοὺς πλείστους τυράννους· ἦσαν δὲ καὶ ἰδιῶταί τινες τῶν 615e μεγάλα ἡμαρτηκότων—οὓς οἰομένους ἤδη ἀναβήσεσθαι οὐκ ἐδέχετο τὸ στόμιον, ἀλλʼ ἐμυκᾶτο ὁπότε τις τῶν οὕτως ἀνιάτως ἐχόντων εἰς πονηρίαν ἢ μὴ ἱκανῶς δεδωκὼς δίκην ἐπιχειροῖ ἀνιέναι.

Republic. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1905.

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Πολιτεία (Greek) (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.)

Translations (1)

Republic Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).) — 10.615 focus

[615] And they told their stories to one another, the one lamenting 615a and wailing as they recalled how many and how dreadful things they had suffered and seen in their journey beneath the earth¹—it lasted a thousand years²—while those from heaven related their delights and visions of a beauty beyond words. To tell it all, Glaucon, would take all our time, but the sum, he said, was this. For all the wrongs they had ever done to anyone and all whom they had severally wronged they had paid the penalty in turn tenfold for each, and the measure of this was by periods of a hundred years each,³ 615b so that on the assumption that this was the length of human life the punishment might be ten times the crime; as for example that if anyone had been the cause of many deaths or had betrayed cities and armies and reduced them to slavery, or had been participant in any other iniquity, they might receive in requital pains tenfold for each of these wrongs, and again if any had done deeds of kindness and been just 615c and holy men they might receive their due reward in the same measure; and other things not worthy of record he said of those who had just been born⁴ and lived but a short time; and he had still greater requitals to tell of piety and impiety towards the gods and parents⁵ and of self-slaughter. For he said that he stood by when one was questioned by another Where is Ardiaeus⁶ the Great? Now this Ardiaeos had been tyrant in a certain city of Pamphylia just a thousand years before that time and had put to death his old father 615d and his elder brother, and had done many other unholy deeds, as was the report. So he said that the one questioned replied, He has not come, said he, nor will he be likely to come here.
For indeed this was one of the dreadful sights we beheld; when we were near the mouth and about to issue forth and all our other sufferings were ended, we suddenly caught sight of him and of others, the most of them, I may say, tyrants.⁷ But there were some 615e of private station, of those who had committed great crimes. And when these supposed that at last they were about to go up and out, the mouth would not receive them, but it bellowed when anyone of the incurably wicked⁸ or of those who had not completed their punishment tried to come up.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

χιλιέτη . Cf. Virg. Aen. VI 748 ff. has omnes, ubi mille rotam volvere per annos | Lethaeum ad fluvium deus evocat agmine magno. There is little doubt that both Virgil and Plato took the period of 1000 years from some Orphic or Pythagorean source: see Dieterich l.c. pp. 116 ff. It will be observed that the thousand years do not, in the Republic, include the lifetime of the soul on earth, which Plato estimates at 100 years (615 B). In the Phaedrus on the other hand the entire interval from birth to birth is reckoned at 1000 years (249 A ff., compared with 248 D, E).

εὐπαθείας ‐‐ κάλλος suggests the beatific visions of the Phaedrus (247 A ff.).

πολλοῦ χρόνου : sc. ἐστί, as in Laws IV 708 D χρόνου πολλοῦ καὶ παγχάλεπον (Stallbaum). It is worse than needless to insert δεῖ (with Liebhold) after χρόνου.

ὅσα ‐‐ ἠδίκησαν . In Plato, as in Dante, doing wrong to others is the great sin.

τοῦτο δ’ εἶναι κτλ. ‘that is,’ said he, ‘once in every hundred years.’ τοῦτο δ’ εἶναι (‘namely’) explains ὑπὲρ ἑκάστου δεκάκις. This view is simpler and more idiomatic than (with Schneider) to make τοῦτο= τὸ δίκην δοῦναι ἐν μέρει ὑπὲρ ἑκάστου.

ὄντος τοσούτου . The same duration of human life is postulated also in Phaedr. 248 D ff., but retribution in that dialogue appears to be ἐννάκις, and not δεκάκις as here; cf. 256 E with 248 E. The number 100 is the square of the Pythagorean ‘perfect’ number 10, so that Pythagorean influence is doubtless at work again. See App. I to Book VIII p. 301, and cf. 614 B note It should also be remarked that the Greeks, like other races, had many stories to tell of the μακρόβιοι of early days, and the ‘Naturvölker’ of historic times were also credited with preternaturally long lives: see the evidence collected by Rohde Griech. Roman pp. 218, 236, 247 notes

πολλῶν . See cr. n. Par. D—followed here by Burnet—has πολλοῖς, “quod propter pluralem θανάτων ferri nequit” (Schneider). The passage quoted by J. and C. in defence of πολλοῖς from Laws IX 870 D τοὺς οὖν τούτων μηνυτὰς ἀναιροῦσι θανάτοις is not quite parallel.

πόλεις προδόντες κτλ. So in Virg. Aen. VI 620 vendidit hic auro patriam. Antiphon ( de Her. Caed. 10) names as the three chiefest sins τὸ ἀποκτείνειν καὶ τὸ ἱεροσυλεῖν καὶ τὸ προδιδόναι τὴν πόλιν. Cf. also Dieterich Nek. pp. 66 ff.

εἰς δουλείας ἐμβεβληκότες is parallel, as Schneider points out, to αἴτιοι and not to προδόντες.

καὶ αὖ ‐‐ κομίζοιντο . It is not at first sight clear whether this applies to those who have come ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ, or to those who, though condemned on the whole account, have done some good actions in their lives, and occasionally shewn themselves just and pious. The latter view is supported by Phaed. 113 D ἐκεῖ (in Acheron) οἰκοῦσί τε καὶ καθαιρό‐ μενοι τῶν τε ἀδικημάτων διδόντες δίκας ἀπολύονται, εἴ τίς τι ἠδίκηκεν, τῶν τε εὐεργεσιῶν τιμὰς φέρονται κατὰ τὴν ἀξίαν ἕκαστος, and is, I believe, what Plato means. Cf. 616 B note

εὐεργετηκότες . A few MSS, including q, have εὐηργετηκότες, which Rutherford ( New Phryn. p. 245) and the grammarians regard as the regular Attic form: but εὐεργέτηκεν is found on Inscriptions of the 4th Century B.C. See Meisterhans^{3} p. 172 and Kühner-Blass I 2. p. 33.

τῶν δὲ εὐθὺς κτλ. : ‘about those who died as soon as they were born, and those who had lived but a short time’ etc., lit. “about the ‘as-soon-as-they-wereborn’ and the ‘short-lived’ etc.” The εὐθὺς γενόμενοι and the ὀλίγον χρόνον βιοῦντες were probably two well-recognised categories of the ἄωροι (as to whom see Rohde Psyche^{2} II pp. 411 ff.): hence the article τῶν. Cf. Virg. Aen. VI 428 dulcis vitae exsortes, et ab ubere raptos. A limbus infantum appears to have been a feature of early Orphic pictures of the underworld (Dieterich Nek. p. 158). It is unwise to insert ἀποθανόντων (Ast, Stallbaum) or ἀπογενομένων (Herwerden, Baiter) after γενομένων, or to read <ἀπο>γενομένων (Cobet), for, as Schneider observes, “de mortuis hic agi in aperto est.” Schneider's own interpretation may be gathered from his note “nec nostrates, opinor offenderet von denen, die eben erst geboren gewesen etiam non addito als sie starben.” I agree with Stallbaum in doubting whether εὐθύς can have this meaning: and it is safer, I think, to understand εὐθὺς γενόμενοι in the ordinary way. Others think that only one category is intended, taking ὀλίγον χρόνον βιούντων as equivalent to ἀποθανόντων (Purves, and so also D. and V. “those whose death followed close upon their birth”). But καί cannot be so easily ignored.

εἰς δὲ θεοὺς κτλ. Cf. Xen. Mem. IV 4. 19 , 20 παρὰ πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις πρῶτον νομίζεται τοὺς θεοὺς σέβειν. Οὐκοῦν καὶ γονέας τιμᾶν πανταχοῦ νομίζεται; Καὶ τοῦτο, ἔφη, and Pind. Pyth. 6. 23—27 and other passages in Nägelsbach Nachhom. Theol. pp. 191 ff., 275 ff. The categories of sinners in the Phaedo (113 E—114 B) correspond very nearly to those mentioned here. Cf. Dieterich Nek. pp. 165 ff.

αὐτόχειρος φόνου . See cr. n. In common with most editors I have adopted αὐτόχειρος in place of αὐτόχειρας. The error was easy, and the change is slight. Schneider understands εἰς before αὐτόχειρας, in a different sense from that which it bears with θεούς and γονέας. “Contorta sane loci interpretatio,” says Stallbaum, rightly. αὐτόχειρ φόνος (cf. the ἀνδροφόνοι of the Phaedo l.c.) does not necessarily mean either ‘suicide’ or ‘the murder of near relations’ (D. and V.), but merely ‘slaying with one's own hand,’ ‘homicide.’ See Jebb on Soph. Ant. 55 .

Ἀρδιαῖος : a purely fictitious personage, no doubt, although verisimilitude is preserved by χιλιοστόν: cf. εἶναι δὲ τὴν πορείαν χιλιέτη 615 A.

οὐδ) ἂν ἥξει . ἄν with the future indicative is scarcely here ‘colloquial’ (as Goodwin holds, MT. p. 66), but has a solemn, half-tragic or poetical effect. There is the usual supply of emendations, such as οὐδ’ αὖ ἥξει (Madvig) οὐδ’ ἀνήξει (Herwerden), οὐδὲ μὴ ἥξει (Cobet), οὐδὲ δὴ ἥξει (Richards); but the idiom is sufficiently well established (see on VI 492 C), and, as Turner remarks, the variant ἥξοι (in Ξ and three other MSS) is itself also evidence in favour of ἄν.

σχεδόν τι ‐‐ τυράννους . Cf. Gorg. 525 D ο<*>μαι δὲ καὶ τοὺς πολλοὺς εἶναι τούτων τῶν παραδειγμάτων ἐκ τυράννων καὶ βασιλέων καὶ δυναστῶν καὶ τὰ τῶν πόλεων πραξάντων γεγονότας.

ἦσαν δὲ καὶ κτλ. : not “erant vero etiam aliqui privati ex eorum numero, qui magna perpetraverant facinora” (Stallbaum), but “erant vero etiam nonnulli privati et quidem de genere magnorum peccatorum” (after Schneider). With ἦσαν cf. Phaed. 59 B ἦν δὲ καὶ Κτήσιππος and Prot. 315 A .

ἐμυκᾶτο . Cf. Arist. an. post. II 11. 94^{b} 32 βροντᾷ—ὡς οἱ Πυθαγόρειοί φασιν, ἀπειλῆς ἕνεκα τοῖς ἐν τῷ ταρτάρῳ, ὅπως φοβῶνται (quoted by Zeller^{5} I p. 451 note 3). See also Plut. de gen. Socr. 591 C. The remarks of Proclus on this part of the myth deserve quotation: πάντα γὰρ ταῦτα φρικώδεις μὲν ποιεῖ τὰς ποινὰς καὶ ἀπαραιτήτους, ἀνυπερβλήτους δὲ τὰς μοχθηρίας δείκνυσι τῶν κολαζομένων, εἴπερ καὶ τὰ ἄψυχα φωνὴν ἀφίησιν ἔμψυχον κατ’ αὐτῶν καὶ τὰ κολάζοντα φάσματα δυσαντίβλεπτα καὶ τὰ δεσμωτήρια ἄφυκτα (l.c. p. 180).

ἀνιάτως ἐχόντων . Cf. Phaed. 113 E οἳ δ’ ἂν δόξωσιν ἀνιάτως ἔχειν διὰ τὰ μεγέθη τῶν ἁμαρτημάτων κτλ. See on II 380 B.

ἄνδρες ‐‐ ἄγριοι κτλ. These are the prototypes of the κολάζοντες ἄγγελοι of later apocalyptic literature: see for example Petri Apoc. vv. 21, 23 (Dieterich Nek. pp. 4 and 60). Cf. also Euseb. Praep. Ev. XIII 13. 5.

ἔφη : sc. ὁ ἐρωτώμενος (supra D).

τοὺς μὲν ‐‐ ἦγον . διαλαβεῖν· παλαιστρικόν τι (Hesychius). The word is explained in Bekker Anecd. 36 as τὸ ἑκατέρωθέν τινος λαβέσθαι. Cf. Hdt. IV 68 διαλελαμμένος ἄγεται, I 114 al. Some malefactors they seized in this forcible way and marched off direct to Tartarus (see on 616 A): others, and among them Ardiaeus, they tortured first, and utilised as παραδείγματα (infra 616 A note). Schneider translates “die nehmen die einen und führten sie abseits,” understanding διαλαβεῖν as ‘take aside’: a usage for which the lexica rightly or wrongly quote Aesch. F. L. 41 διαλαμβάνων γὰρ ἕκαστον ἡμῶν ἐν μέρει. The variants ἰδίᾳ λαβόντες ( Ξ and some other MSS), ἰδίᾳ παραλαβόντες (Euseb. Praep. Ev. XIII 13. 5 and Clem. Strom. V 133 Migne) etc. point to a similar but not identical interpretation: cf. also Proclus l.c. p. 182. 6 ff. διαλαβόντες γὰρ ἄγουσιν οἳ μὲν ἄλλους, οἳ δὲ ἄλλους· τοῦτο γὰρ τὸ διαλαβεῖν, οἷον διανείμασθαι τὰς κολάσεις. But τοὺς μέν seems clearly to refer to some of the ἀνιάτως ἔχοντες, and none of this class is likely to have met with gentle treatment at the hands of the ἄνδρες διάπυροι. In Phaed. 113 E all the incurables are thrown εἰς τὸν Τάρταρον, ὅθεν οὔποτε ἐκβαίνουσιν. It may be noted that the reading διαλαβόντες is confirmed by Plutarch's imitation τοῦτον ἡ Δίκη διαλαβοῦσα ( de ser. num. vind. 565 A).

Plato Republic 10.615

ed. John Burnet

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