Plato Republic 7.515

Paul Shorey (Translator)

Republic. Plato. Paul Shorey (Translator). Cambridge, MA. 1935-37.

Sponsored by Perseus Project, Tufts University.

Funding provided by The Annenberg CPB/Project.

Current edition Perseus

Republic (English) (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).)

Editions (1)
Πολιτεία Perseus (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.) — 7.515 focus

Notes on the current edition

Republic

1. Cf. Parmen. 130 C, Tim. 51 B, 52 A, and my De Platonis Idearum doctrina, pp. 24-25; also E. Hoffmann in Wochenschrift f. klass. Phil. xxxvi. ( 1919) pp. 196-197. As we use the word tree of the trees we see, though the reality ( αὐτὸ ὃ ἔστι) is the idea of a tree, so they would speak of the shadows as the world, though the real reference unknown to them would be to the objects that cause the shadows, and back of the objects to the things of the real world of which they are copies. The general meaning, which is quite certain, is that they wold suppose the shadows to be the realities. The text and the precise turn of expression are doubtful. See crit. note. παριόντα is intentionally ambiguous in its application to the shadows or to the objects which cast them. They suppose that the names refer to the passing shadows, but (as we know) they really apply to the objects. Ideas and particulars are homonymous. Assuming a slight illogicality we can get somewhat the same meaning from the text ταὐτά. Do you not think that they would identify the passing objects (which strictly speaking they do not know) with what they saw? Cf. also P. Corssen, Philologische Wochenschrift, 1913, p. 286. He prefers οὐκ αὐτά and renders: Sie würden in dem, was sie sähen, das Vorübergehende selbst zu benennen glauben.
2. The echo and the voices (515 A) merely complete the picture.
3. Phaedo 67 D
λύειν
, and 82 D
λύσει τε καὶ καθαρμῷ. λύσις
became technical in Neoplatonism.
4. Lit. by nature. φύσις in Plato often suggests reality and truth.
5. The entire passage is an obvious allegory of the painful experience of one whose false conceit of knowledge is tested by the Socratic elenchus. Cf. Soph. 230 B-D, and for ἀπορεῖν Meno 80 A, 84 B-C, Theaet. 149 A, Apol. 23 D. Cf. also What Plato Said, p. 5123 on Meno 80 A, Eurip. Hippol. 247
τὸ γὰρ ὀρθοῦσθαι γνώμαν ὀδυνᾷ
, it is painful to have one’s opinions set right, and 517 A, 494 D.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

τί δέ; τῶν παραφερομένων κτλ. After τοῦτο supply οἴει ἂν ἑωρακέναι αὐτούς. I have placed a mark of interrogation after τί δέ, in order that τῶν παραφερομένων may have its proper emphasis: cf. V 470 A note

οὐ ταῦτα κτλ. : ‘do you not suppose they would believe that they were naming these particular passing objects which they saw?’ They have never seen anything of the real παριόντα (or παραφερόμενα): therefore ( οὖν) they suppose themselves to be naming, i.e. using the name of, not (as is in point of fact the case) the real παριόντα, but only these παριόντα which they see. For example, they call the shadow of a table ‘a table,’ and in so doing they are, without knowing it, naming, not, as they suppose, the shadow, but the substance. J. and C. remark that “ παριόντα is rather confusing as it might signify either the shadows” (cf. 516 C) “or the realities” (cf. 515 D). True: but ταῦτα τὰ παριόντα, ἅπερ ὁρῷεν can signify only the shadows. The corruption παρόντα for παριόντα (see cr. n.) is easy, and occurs in some MSS at 516 C (where παριόντα again= παριοῦσαι σκιαί). Plato means (to interpret the allegory) that what the ἀπαίδευτος calls a substance is only a shadow. For other views of this sentence see App. IV.

εἰ καὶ ἠχὼ κτλ. The voices heard by the ἀπαίδευτος are as shadowy as the forms he sees: βλέποντες ἔβλεπον μάτην, | κλύοντες οὐκ ἤκουον, ἀλλ’ ὀνειράτων | ἀλίγκιοι μορφαῖσι τὸν μακρὸν βίον | ἔφυρον εἰκῆ πάντα (Aesch P. V. 447—450).