Plato, Republic, Paul Shorey (Translator), 3.396

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[396] Nor yet, as it seems, bad men who are cowards and who do the opposite of the things we just now spoke of, reviling and lampooning one another, speaking foul words in their cups or when sober 396a and in other ways sinning against themselves and others in word and deed after the fashion of such men. And I take it they must not form the habit of likening themselves to madmen either in words nor yet in deeds. For while knowledge they must have¹ both of mad and bad men and women, they must do and imitate nothing of this kind. Most true, he said. What of this? I said, —are they to imitate smiths and other craftsmen or the rowers of triremes and those who call the time to them or other things 396b connected therewith? How could they, he said, since it will be forbidden them even to pay any attention to such things? Well, then, neighing horses² and lowing bulls, and the noise of rivers and the roar of the sea and the thunder and everything of that kind—will they imitate these? Nay, they have been forbidden, he said, to be mad or liken themselves to madmen. If, then, I understand your meaning, said I, there is a form of diction and narrative in which 396c the really good and true man would narrate anything that he had to say, and another form unlike this to which the man of the opposite birth and breeding would cleave and which he would tell his story. What are these forms? he said. A man of the right sort, I think, when he comes in the course of his narrative to some word or act of a good man will be willing to impersonate the other in reporting it, and will feel no shame at that kind of mimicry, by preference imitating the good man 396d when he acts steadfastly and sensibly, and less and more reluctantly when he is upset by sickness or love or drunkenness or any other mishap. But when he comes to someone unworthy of himself, he will not wish to liken himself in earnest to one who is inferior,³ except in the few cases where he is doing something good, but will be embarrassed both because he is unpractised in the mimicry of such characters, and also because he shrinks in distaste from molding and fitting himself the types of baser things. 396e His mind disdains them, unless it be for jest.⁴ Naturally, he said.
Then the narrative that he will employ will be the kind that we just now illustrated by the verses of Homer, and his diction will be one that partakes of both, of imitation and simple narration, but there will be a small portion of imitation in a long discourse—or is there nothing in what I say? Yes, indeed,⁵ he said, that is the type and pattern of such a speaker.

Republic. Plato. Paul Shorey (Translator). Cambridge, MA. 1935-37.

Sponsored by Perseus Project, Tufts University.

Funding provided by The Annenberg CPB/Project.

Current edition Perseus

Republic (English) (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).)

Editions (1)

Πολιτεία Perseus (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.) — 3.396 focus

[396]
οὐδέ γε ἄνδρας κακούς, ὡς ἔοικεν, δειλούς τε καὶ τὰ ἐναντία πράττοντας ὧν νυνδὴ εἴπομεν, κακηγοροῦντάς τε καὶ κωμῳδοῦντας ἀλλήλους καὶ αἰσχρολογοῦντας, μεθύοντας ἢ 396a καὶ νήφοντας, ἢ καὶ ἄλλα ὅσα οἱ τοιοῦτοι καὶ ἐν λόγοις καὶ ἐν ἔργοις ἁμαρτάνουσιν εἰς αὑτούς τε καὶ εἰς ἄλλους, οἶμαι δὲ οὐδὲ μαινομένοις ἐθιστέον ἀφομοιοῦν αὑτοὺς ἐν λόγοις οὐδὲ ἐν ἔργοις· γνωστέον μὲν γὰρ καὶ μαινομένους καὶ πονηροὺς ἄνδρας τε καὶ γυναῖκας, ποιητέον δὲ οὐδὲν τούτων οὐδὲ μιμητέον.
ἀληθέστατα, ἔφη.
τί δέ; ἦν δʼ ἐγώ· χαλκεύοντας ἤ τι ἄλλο δημιουργοῦντας, 396b ἢ ἐλαύνοντας τριήρεις ἢ κελεύοντας τούτοις, ἤ τι ἄλλο τῶν περὶ ταῦτα μιμητέον;
καὶ πῶς; ἔφη, οἷς γε οὐδὲ προσέχειν τὸν νοῦν τούτων οὐδενὶ ἐξέσται;
τί δέ; ἵππους χρεμετίζοντας καὶ ταύρους μυκωμένους καὶ ποταμοὺς ψοφοῦντας καὶ θάλατταν κτυποῦσαν καὶ βροντὰς καὶ πάντα αὖ τὰ τοιαῦτα ἦ μιμήσονται;
ἀλλʼ ἀπείρηται αὐτοῖς, ἔφη, μήτε μαίνεσθαι μήτε μαινομένοις ἀφομοιοῦσθαι.
εἰ ἄρα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, μανθάνω ἃ σὺ λέγεις, ἔστιν τι εἶδος λέξεώς τε καὶ διηγήσεως ἐν ᾧ ἂν διηγοῖτο ὁ τῷ ὄντι καλὸς 396c κἀγαθός, ὁπότε τι δέοι αὐτὸν λέγειν, καὶ ἕτερον αὖ ἀνόμοιον τούτῳ εἶδος, οὗ ἂν ἔχοιτο ἀεὶ καὶ ἐν ᾧ διηγοῖτο ὁ ἐναντίως ἐκείνῳ φύς τε καὶ τραφείς.
ποῖα δή, ἔφη, ταῦτα;
ὁ μέν μοι δοκεῖ, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, μέτριος ἀνήρ, ἐπειδὰν ἀφίκηται ἐν τῇ διηγήσει ἐπὶ λέξιν τινὰ ἢ πρᾶξιν ἀνδρὸς ἀγαθοῦ, ἐθελήσειν ὡς αὐτὸς ὢν ἐκεῖνος ἀπαγγέλλειν καὶ οὐκ αἰσχυνεῖσθαι ἐπὶ τῇ τοιαύτῃ μιμήσει, μάλιστα μὲν μιμούμενος 396d τὸν ἀγαθὸν ἀσφαλῶς τε καὶ ἐμφρόνως πράττοντα, ἐλάττω δὲ καὶ ἧττον ἢ ὑπὸ νόσων ἢ ὑπὸ ἐρώτων ἐσφαλμένον ἢ καὶ ὑπὸ μέθης ἤ τινος ἄλλης συμφορᾶς· ὅταν δὲ γίγνηται κατά τινα ἑαυτοῦ ἀνάξιον, οὐκ ἐθελήσειν σπουδῇ ἀπεικάζειν ἑαυτὸν τῷ χείρονι, εἰ μὴ ἄρα κατὰ βραχύ, ὅταν τι χρηστὸν ποιῇ, ἀλλʼ αἰσχυνεῖσθαι, ἅμα μὲν ἀγύμναστος ὢν τοῦ μιμεῖσθαι τοὺς τοιούτους, ἅμα δὲ καὶ δυσχεραίνων αὑτὸν ἐκμάττειν τε καὶ 396e ἐνιστάναι εἰς τοὺς τῶν κακιόνων τύπους, ἀτιμάζων τῇ διανοίᾳ, ὅτι μὴ παιδιᾶς χάριν.
εἰκός, ἔφη.
οὐκοῦν διηγήσει χρήσεται οἵᾳ ἡμεῖς ὀλίγον πρότερον διήλθομεν περὶ τὰ τοῦ Ὁμήρου ἔπη, καὶ ἔσται αὐτοῦ ἡ λέξις μετέχουσα μὲν ἀμφοτέρων, μιμήσεώς τε καὶ τῆς ἄλλης διηγήσεως, σμικρὸν δέ τι μέρος ἐν πολλῷ λόγῳ τῆς μιμήσεως; ἢ οὐδὲν λέγω;
καὶ μάλα, ἔφη, οἷόν γε ἀνάγκη τὸν τύπον εἶναι τοῦ τοιούτου ῥήτορος.

Notes on the current edition

Republic

1. Cf. Laws 816 D-E.

2. For this rejection of violent realism Cf. Laws 669 C-D. Plato describes exactly what Verhaeren’s admirers approve:

often in his rhythm can be heard the beat of hammers, the hard, edged, regular whizzing of wheels, the whirring of looms, the hissing of locomotives; often the wild, restless tumult of the streets, the humming and rumbling of dense masses of people.

(Stefan Zweig). So another modern critic celebrates

the cry of a baby in a Strauss symphony, the sneers and snarls of his critics in his Helden Leben, the contortions of the Dragon in Wagner’s Siegfried .

3. Chaucer drew from a misapplication of Timaeus 29 B or Boethius the opposite moral:

Who shall telle a tale after a man,

He most reherse, as neighe as ever he can,

Everich word, if it be in his charge,

All speke he never so rudely and so large;

Eke Plato sayeth, who so can him rede,

The words most ben cosin to the dede.

4. Plato, like Howells and some other modern novelists, would have thought somewhat gross comedy less harmful than the tragedy or romance that insidiously instils false ideals.

5. The respondent plays on the double meaning of οὐδὲν λέγεις and replies, Yes indeed you do say something, namely the type and pattern, etc.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

ἢ καὶ ἄλλα . ἄλλα must be coordinated with αἰσχρολογοῦντας, not with νήφοντας, so that Hartman's correction ( καί for ἢ καί), though scarcely necessary, is an improvement, and may be right.

μαινομένοις . As in the Eumenides, Ajax, Hercules Furens.

γνωστέον κτλ. cf. 409 A.

μιμητέον . See on μιμεῖσθαι 395 D.

ἵππους ‐‐ βροντάς . The reference is probably to stage machinery and musical effects etc. in dramatic poetry generally, as well as in the later and degenerate form of the dithyramb (see on 394 C). Cf. (with Nettleship Lect. and Rem. II p. 105) Laws 669 C ff. and Ar. Plut. 290 ff. The βροντεῖον and κεραυνοσκοπεῖον for producing thunder and lightning were familiar enough (Müller Gr. Bühnenalt. p. 157 note 2). It is clear, as Nettleship remarks, that “Plato felt strongly that Greek literature and music were declining” in his days: see Laws 659 A ff., 700 A ff., 797 A ff.

ὁ μὲν ‐‐ ἀνήρ . It seems difficult (as Schneider remarked) either to connect ὁ μέν with μέτριος ἀνήρ, or to understand ὁ μέν as ‘the one’ and suppose that μέτριος ἀνήρ is in apposition to it. If the latter alternative is right, we should expect μέτριος < ὢν > ἀνήρ, or < ὁ > μέτριος ἀνήρ, and in view of other cases in which the article is placed at some distance from its noun (e.g. ὁ δέ γε, οἶμαι, ἦν δ’ ἐγώ, καταληφθεὶς θανάτῳ δίδοται VIII 566 C), I still prefer the former view. Some may be inclined to regard μέτριος ἀνήρ as a gloss. I have sometimes been tempted to make μοι δοκεῖ parenthetical (exactly=‘methinks’), in which case ὁ μέν can easily be connected with μέτριος. The idiom occurs in Phaed. 108 D ὁ βίος μοι δοκεῖ ὁ ἐμός—τῷ μήκει τοῦ λόγου οὐκ ἐξαρκεῖ and Menex. 236 B : cf. also Crito 43 D, 50 B, and I 332 E note This solution would involve the change of ἐθελήσειν to ἐθελήσει—so v—and of αἰσχυνεῖσθαι to αἰσχυνεῖται just below, as well as again in D. Such a corruption, once started, ἔρχεται—as Plato might say — ὡς κύκλος αὐξανομένη; but I do not venture to change the text.

καὶ ἧττον is not superfluous with ἐλάττω. ἐλάττω means ‘in fewer respects,’ and ἧττον ‘to a less degree.’

σπουδῇ . Cf. ὅ τι μὴ παιδιᾶς χάριν in E and σπουδῇ 397 A.

ὅ τι μὴ παιδιᾶς χάριν . Cf. VII 518 B.

οἵᾳ . According to Van Cleef ( de Attract. usu Plat. p. 36), οἷος is not elsewhere attracted in Plato.

τῆς ἁπλῆς . See cr. n. The reading of the MSS τῆς ἄλλης ought strictly speaking to mean ‘the rest of διήγησις,’ i.e. besides μίμησις. A reference to 392 D will shew that the rest of διήγησις includes (1) simple διήγησις, (2) the mixed style. If the text is sound, Plato therefore says that the good man's λέξις will resemble Homer's in partaking of all three varieties. This is a cumbrous and unnecessary elaboration: for if style partakes both in μίμησις and in simple διήγησις, it is already ipso facto ‘mixed.’ To take ἄλλης as ‘besides’ may be admissible, but in any case it is desirable to define the kind of διήγησις meant. I believe that Plato wrote ἁπλῆς. The good man's style will resemble Homer's, which has already been said to partake of μίμησις (393 C) and of ἁπλῆ διήγησις (394 B). The corruption—common in uncial MSS—is illustrated by Bast Comment. Palaeogr. p. 730. Cf. my article in Cl. Rev. X pp. 384 f.

μέρος (as Schneider points out) depends on μετέχουσα: cf. Euthyd. 306 A ὦν ἀμφοτέρων μέρος μετέχουσι.

Plato Republic 3.396

Paul Shorey (Translator)

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