Plato, Republic, Paul Shorey (Translator), 10.608

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[608] But if not, my friend, even as men who have fallen in love, if they think that the love is not good for them, hard though it be,¹ nevertheless refrain, so we, owing to the love of this kind of poetry inbred in us by our education in these fine² polities of ours, 608a will gladly have the best possible case made out for her goodness and truth, but so long as she is unable to make good her defence we shall chant over to ourselves³ as we listen the reasons that we have given as a counter-charm to her spell, to preserve us from slipping back into the childish loves of the multitude; for we have come to see that we must not take such poetry seriously as a serious thing⁴ that lays hold on truth, but that he who lends an ear to it must be on his guard 608b fearing for the polity in his soul⁵ and must believe what we have said about poetry. By all means, he said, I concur. Yes, for great is the struggle,⁶ I said, dear Glaucon, a far greater contest than we think it, that determines whether a man prove good or bad, so that not the lure of honor or wealth or any office, no, nor of poetry either, should incite us⁷ to be careless of righteousness and all excellence. I agree with you, he replied, in view of what we have set forth, and I think that anyone else would do so too. 608c
And yet, said I, the greatest rewards of virtue and the prizes proposed for her we have not set forth. You must have in mind an inconceivable⁸ magnitude, he replied, if there are other things greater than those of which we have spoken.⁹? For surely the whole time from the boy to the old man would be small compared with all time.¹⁰ Nay, it is nothing, he said. What then? Do you think that an immortal thing¹¹ ought to be seriously concerned for such a little time, 608d and not rather for all time? I think so, he said; but what is this that you have in mind? Have you never perceived, said I, that our soul is immortal and never perishes? And he, looking me full in the face¹² in amazement,¹³ said, No, by Zeus, not I; but are you able to declare this? I certainly ought to be,¹⁴ said I, and I think you too can, for it is nothing hard. It is for me, he said; and I would gladly hear from you this thing that is not hard.¹⁵ Listen, said I. Just speak on, he replied. You speak of¹⁶ good 608e and evil, do you not? I do. Is your notion of them the same as mine? What is it? That which destroys and corrupts in every case is the evil; that which preserves and benefits is the good. Yes, I think so, he said.

Republic. Plato. Paul Shorey (Translator). Cambridge, MA. 1935-37.

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Current edition Perseus

Republic (English) (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 5-6. Shorey, Paul, translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935-37 (printing).)

Editions (1)

Πολιτεία Perseus (Platonis Opera Tomus IV: Tetralogia VIII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905.) — 10.608 focus

[608]
εἰ δέ γε μή, ὦ φίλε ἑταῖρε, ὥσπερ οἱ ποτέ του ἐρασθέντες, ἐὰν ἡγήσωνται μὴ ὠφέλιμον εἶναι τὸν ἔρωτα, βίᾳ μέν, ὅμως δὲ ἀπέχονται, καὶ ἡμεῖς οὕτως, διὰ τὸν ἐγγεγονότα μὲν ἔρωτα τῆς τοιαύτης ποιήσεως ὑπὸ τῆς τῶν καλῶν πολιτειῶν 608a τροφῆς, εὖνοι μὲν ἐσόμεθα φανῆναι αὐτὴν ὡς βελτίστην καὶ ἀληθεστάτην, ἕως δʼ ἂν μὴ οἵα τʼ ᾖ ἀπολογήσασθαι, ἀκροασόμεθʼ αὐτῆς ἐπᾴδοντες ἡμῖν αὐτοῖς τοῦτον τὸν λόγον, ὃν λέγομεν, καὶ ταύτην τὴν ἐπῳδήν, εὐλαβούμενοι πάλιν ἐμπεσεῖν εἰς τὸν παιδικόν τε καὶ τὸν τῶν πολλῶν ἔρωτα. ᾀσόμεθα δʼ οὖν ὡς οὐ σπουδαστέον ἐπὶ τῇ τοιαύτῃ ποιήσει ὡς ἀληθείας τε ἁπτομένῃ καὶ σπουδαίᾳ, ἀλλʼ εὐλαβητέον 608b αὐτὴν ὂν τῷ ἀκροωμένῳ, περὶ τῆς ἐν αὑτῷ πολιτείας δεδιότι, καὶ νομιστέα ἅπερ εἰρήκαμεν περὶ ποιήσεως.
παντάπασιν, ἦ δʼ ὅς, σύμφημι.
μέγας γάρ, ἔφην, ὁ ἀγών, ὦ φίλε Γλαύκων, μέγας, οὐχ ὅσος δοκεῖ, τὸ χρηστὸν ἢ κακὸν γενέσθαι, ὥστε οὔτε τιμῇ ἐπαρθέντα οὔτε χρήμασιν οὔτε ἀρχῇ οὐδεμιᾷ οὐδέ γε ποιητικῇ ἄξιον ἀμελῆσαι δικαιοσύνης τε καὶ τῆς ἄλλης ἀρετῆς.
σύμφημί σοι, ἔφη, ἐξ ὧν διεληλύθαμεν· οἶμαι δὲ καὶ ἄλλον ὁντινοῦν. 608c
καὶ μήν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τά γε μέγιστα ἐπίχειρα ἀρετῆς καὶ προκείμενα ἆθλα οὐ διεληλύθαμεν.
ἀμήχανόν τι, ἔφη, λέγεις μέγεθος, εἰ τῶν εἰρημένων μείζω ἐστὶν ἄλλα.
τί δʼ ἄν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἔν γε ὀλίγῳ χρόνῳ μέγα γένοιτο; πᾶς γὰρ οὗτός γε ὁ ἐκ παιδὸς μέχρι πρεσβύτου χρόνος πρὸς πάντα ὀλίγος πού τις ἂν εἴη.
οὐδὲν μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
τί οὖν; οἴει ἀθανάτῳ πράγματι ὑπὲρ τοσούτου δεῖν 608d χρόνου ἐσπουδακέναι, ἀλλʼ οὐχ ὑπὲρ τοῦ παντός;
οἶμαι ἔγωγʼ, ἔφη· ἀλλὰ τί τοῦτο λέγεις;
οὐκ ᾔσθησαι, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὅτι ἀθάνατος ἡμῶν ἡ ψυχὴ καὶ οὐδέποτε ἀπόλλυται;
καὶ ὃς ἐμβλέψας μοι καὶ θαυμάσας εἶπε· μὰ Δίʼ, οὐκ ἔγωγε· σὺ δὲ τοῦτʼ ἔχεις λέγειν;
εἰ μὴ ἀδικῶ γʼ, ἔφην. οἶμαι δὲ καὶ σύ· οὐδὲν γὰρ χαλεπόν.
ἔμοιγʼ, ἔφη· σοῦ δʼ ἂν ἡδέως ἀκούσαιμι τὸ οὐ χαλεπὸν τοῦτο.
ἀκούοις ἄν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ.
λέγε μόνον, ἔφη.
ἀγαθόν τι, εἶπον, καὶ κακὸν καλεῖς;
ἔγωγε. 608e
ἆρʼ οὖν ὥσπερ ἐγὼ περὶ αὐτῶν διανοῇ;
τὸ ποῖον;
τὸ μὲν ἀπολλύον καὶ διαφθεῖρον πᾶν τὸ κακὸν εἶναι, τὸ δὲ σῷζον καὶ ὠφελοῦν τὸ ἀγαθόν.
ἔγωγʼ, ἔφη.

Notes on the current edition

Republic

1. βίᾳ μέν, ὅμως δέ: Cf. Epist. iii. 316 E, and vii. 325 A, and Raeder, Rhein. Mus. lxi. p. 470, Aristoph. Clouds 1363

μόλις μὲν ἀλλ’ ὅμως

, Eurip. Phoen. 1421

μόλις μέν, ἐξέτεινε δ’

, and also Soph. Antig. 1105, O.T. 998, Eurip. Bacch. 1027, Hec. 843, Or. 1023, El. 753, Phoen. 1069, I.A. 688, 904.

2. Ironical, as καλλίστη in 562 A.

3. For ἐπᾴδοντες Cf. Phaedo 114 D, 77 E.

4. Cf. 602 B.

5. Cf. on 591 E, p. 412, note d.

6. Cf. Phaedo 114 C, 107 C, Phaedr. 247 B, Gorg. 526 E, Blaydes on Aristoph. Peace 276, and for the whole sentence Phaedo 83 B-C, 465 D, 618 B-C f. and p. 404, note d, on 589 E.

7. ἐπαρθέντα: cf. 416 C.

8. Cf. 404 C, 509 A, 548 B, 588 a, Apol. 41 C, Charm. 155 D.

9. Clement, Strom. iv. p. 496 B

ὁθούνεκ’ ἀρετὴ τῶν ἐν ἀνθρώποις μόνη οὐκ ἐκ θυραίων τἀπίχειρα λαμβάνει, αὐτὴ δ’ ἑαυτὴν ἆθλα τῶν πόνων ἔχει

10. Cf. on 496 A, p. 9, mote f and 498 D.

11. For the colorless use of πρᾶγμα see What Plato Said, p. 497, on Protag. 330 C-D. Cf. Shakes. Hamlet,I. iv. 67

being a thing immortal as itself.

12. ἐμβλέψας: Cf. Charmides 155 C.

13. Glaucon is surprised in spite of 498 D. Many uncertain inferences have been drawn from the fact that in spite of the Phaedo and Phaedrus(245 C ff.) interlocutors in Plato are always surprised at the idea of immortality. Cf. ibid, Introd. p. lxiv.

14. For the idiomatic εἰ μὴ ἀδικῶ cf. 430 E Charm. 156 A, Menex. 236 B, 612 D.

15. Cf. Protag. 341 A

τὸ χαλεπὸν τοῦτο

, which is a little different, Herod. vii. 11

τὸ δεινὸν τὸ πείσομαι

16. See Vol. I. p. 90, note a and What Plato Said, p. 567, on Cratyl. 385 B.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Republic (Plato. The Republic, Vol 1-2. Adam, James, editor. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1902-1903.) focus

ἀκροασόμεθα δ’ οὖν κτλ. ‘We shall listen, I say, in the conviction that this kind of poetry should not be taken seriously’ etc. A majority of MSS, including Α and Π, read αἰσθόμεθα instead of ἀκροασόμεθα (see cr. n.): but the present αἴσθομαι was not used in classical Greek, as Stallbaum successfully proves in his elaborate note (cf. also Kühner-Blass Gr. Gr. I 2. p. 354), and if it were, the meaning would still be unsuitable. Neither of the two variants, αἰσθώμεθα and εἰσόμεθα has any great MS authority, or is at all likely to be right. I formerly adopted Madvig's conjecture ᾀσόμεθα, which is in harmony with the Greek tendency to drop the preposition in repeating the reason why τῶν εἰρημένων should not, like ἐκείνοις in 612 B, refer to what Plato in 614 A calls ‘those goods which Justice by herself supplied’ ( ἐκείνοις τοῖς ἀγαθοῖς οἷς αὐτὴ παρείχετο ἡ δικαιοσύνη): and it is much more natural to assign this meaning to τῶν εἰρημένων than to suppose ‘that Plato had two plans in his mind as to how to finish the Republic.’ I can find no sufficient evidence to justify any such idea.

πᾶς γὰρ ‐‐ ἂν εἴη . Cf. VI 486 A. Stallbaum follows Bekker in reading πρὸς τὸν πάντα with q and Flor. U, comparing VI 498 D, οὐχ ὑπὲρ τοῦ παντός below and Phaed. 107 C . “Videtur— πᾶς ad universum tempus, quod omnino dicitur, ab illo verbis πᾶς οὗτος etc. significato distinguendum sufficere, ac nescio an consulto scriptor, quum priorem πάντα χρόνον necessario definisset, hunc plane infinitum exhibuerit” (Schneider). Cf. Walbe Synt. Plat. spec. p. 26.

οἶμαι ἔγωγε : sc. ὑπὲρ τοῦ παντὸς δεῖν ἐσπουδακέναι. Cf. I 336 E note and App. ad loc.

οὐκ ᾔσθησαι κτλ. ‘Have you not observed’ etc. The light and airy tone with which Plato introduces this momentous topic has often been remarked upon; and we can hardly help feeling that οὐδὲν γὰρ χαλεπόν is too audacious to be taken seriously, in spite of Plato's immoveable conviction of the immortality of the soul (see on VI 498 D). The doctrine itself had of course long been an article of the Orphic and Pythagorean creeds (see Rohde Psyche^{2} II pp. 1 ff. and Laudowicz Präexistenz d. Seele u. Seelenwand. in Gr. Phil. pp. 1—29), and we must not suppose (with Thomas Gray) that it is the novelty of the idea which occasions Glauco's wonder. Glauco regards the originally half-theological doctrine of the immortality of the Soul with the same sort of well-bred incredulity which it inspired in most of Plato's contemporaries (cf. VI 498 D with I 330 D, E and Phaed. 69 E , 70 A, 80 D), and is astonished that a well-balanced mind should treat it seriously as a philosophical dogma capable of being established by rational argument.

εἰ μὴ ἀδικῶ γε . See on IV 430 D.

κακὸν ‐‐ λέγεις ; Richards would add ἴδιον or οἰκεῖον after λέγεις, comparing (for ἴδιον) 610 B, and (for οἰκεῖον) 609 C, 610 E. It is easy to understand εἶναι: ‘do you say that each thing has a particular evil and a particular good?’ See Schanz Nov. Comm. Pl. p. 33.

Plato Republic 10.608

Paul Shorey (Translator)

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